| Author |
Message |
    
392
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 9:43 pm: | 
|
OK, for groundwave talking, say out to 50 miles or so, whats the best band. 10/11,6,2or 70cm? I need to talk from home to my farm, about 50 miles and will be setting up an antenna at about 80 ft. I just need the experts to tell me the best choice for the band.
Thanks
392 |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 10:11 pm: |
|
10/11,hands down,or 2-meters,up to you now. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 10:36 pm: |
|
392
If its FLAT and open and you use a good gain antenna at 80 foot 6 or 2 meters will work fine and 440 is close it also COULD work on 440. Now on 10 meters with GOOD antennas at each end it also should work nut skip couks be a problem |
Znut
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 03, 2003 - 10:49 pm: |
|
What about 6 meters?
It is so exciting when 6 meters opens up. Also, there are many 6 meter operators around here. 50.135 is the best freq to monitor here in the Southeast, USB.
I use a 3 element yagi about 18 feet in the air. I can communicate with stations over 100 miles away sometimes, groundwave/line-of-sight.
Are both of the stations you are referring to hams? If not, you could consider MURS VHF frequencies. However, I don't think the 2 watt erp would work at the distances you require. |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 12:26 am: |
|
392
The tip of my I-Max is about 104 feet in the air, give or take an inch or two. On a VERY QUIET nite, I can communicate with a friend of mine who lives 52 miles from me as the crow flys. The tip of his antenna is at 82 feet.
The ONLY way we can do this is on sideband with 35-40 watts PEP. We are also using a frequency (26.110 USB) below the CB band. I get no needle movement from his station and a tiny bit of audio. H gets the same from me. However, when we are using 400 wats of power, of course it's much easier to talk with each other without straining our ears. And even with that, we consider ourselves very fortunate if we can do this during the daytime.
In my opinion, using VHF on any frequency is out of the question. Yes, there have been times I have talked with stations over a hundred miles away but that is on very rare occasions. That only happens with skip conditions. UHF is even less likely unless you are running a tremendous amount of power.
However, using a repeater on VHF is something you may want to consider. If your farm is your business, you may want to think about setting up a repeater using a VHF business band frequency somewhere between that 50 mile spread. That would work out great if it was installed on a hill between your two antennas.
Under normal circumstances and excepted rule-of-thumb, the higher you go in frequency, the more power is needed and the higher gain of antennas needed. Or put another way, for "reliable communications on VHF/UHF, all day/everyday, and taking into account that those two bands are pretty much line-of-sight, using them for distant communications would not be my first choice unless using a repeater. Look at it this way, if they were reliable all day/everyday, repeaters most certainly wouldn't be needed. Any sideband radio on the HF frequencies will out-talk and out-range any FM radio on VHF or UHF.
To be honest with you, my most reliable source of communications is my cell phone. And cheapest too.
Jeff, kc0gxz. |
Taz
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 12:56 am: |
|
Ive had reliable communications on 11m bearfoot at 50mi on alot of occasions.
Taz 73's |
Simon
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 9:31 am: |
|
I DAILY would talk SIMPLEX over 50 miles on 2m. My antenna (then in Australia) was 30ft above ground or if you prefer 25ft above sealevel (lived in a valley 1.5 miles from coast). I talked daily to a friend in a town 55miles away (his antenna 100ft above ground) with 10-20w.
This worked because although in a valley I had a straight line of sight to him. If the area that 392 is in is relatively flat a good antenna at both ends will work for 2m. ON VHF radio line of sight is important and you can often reliably work stations and distances would not think possible.
392 Try 2m and see |
Ca346
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 11:00 am: |
|
If you want to try something different, (and you have the capabilities) you might try 11 meters FM. I once switched to FM when talking to a guy in NY City (I'm in California) at his request. We made initial contact on 27.575 LSB and switched to 27.480 FM. It was a clear communication, but I don't know whether it would cause any interference or not. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 12:27 pm: |
|
CA personly i like 10 meter's ive worked germany fron the car on fm Also 52.525 on 6 meter fm is a winner but you got to be willing to wate for someone to talk to best contact on 6 was vancover BC from the car. MURS for non hams is a winner ( 151.820 )
29.600 is my " home " frequency |
Scrapiron63
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 1:05 pm: |
|
I guess your taking about from a base at home to some mobiles on your farm. If its fairly level terrain I believe 11 meters would be pretty reliable at 50 miles, unless the skip is really bad. You ain't gonna do it very well barefoot though, 80-100 watts on each end will make all the difference in the world. Where I live in these hills, the 150 meg range frequencies don't work very well. Some companies I know with business bands went to the 30 and 40 megz range, they work much better. The state police here has really went downhill in their radio coverage. Back when they used the old 30-40 megz with the old whip antennas, they had good range, when they went to the mid range frequency with repeaters they lost quite a bit, then the move to 800-900 megz really was a bust, now they depend on cellphones when they're in the remote valleys and locations, but some places they want work. Most of them run another radio that will get local sheriffs or city police freqs, which here mostly use 150 meg range. scrapiron |
Triplecguy
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 1:50 pm: |
|
2 meters would be an almost guaranteed success. I use it daily to communicate 50+ miles between my work and my home town. I consistently get at least 1/2 scale on signal strength and I am mobile! An at times depending on terrain, I have had 440 work farther than 2 meters. If your antennas are as high as you say, I would highly recommend 2m/440. Plus, the sound quality will be excellent. If you have any doubt's at all, you could run a small 2m/440 beam from the base location and it will be absolutely amazing what you can do with that set up. Just my 2 cents.
Good luck,
Dan |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 2:09 pm: |
|
Mr. 392 never mentioned where he is or what kind of terrain he has to deal with. Also, I NEVER said that long range communications can't be had with VHF on a line-of-sight bases because I know it can.
What I was trying to get at is the fact that the higher you go in frequency, the shorter the range becomes UNLESS you want to put skip into the equasion.
When dealing with high and low points of terrain, that's where repeaters come in very handy. Not everyone is fortunate enough to live on a mountain top or have a large flat terrain as a playground for long range nonskip radio communication's.
73s.
Jeff, kc0gxz
|
Crafter
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 3:40 pm: |
|
When I lived in OKLA I talked about 100 miles easily to the other towns from oklahoma city to wichita falls tex, Duncan, Marlow, but used 1500 watt on a laser 400 at night. Remember though not many hills. Now on a 2meter mobile I could talk same distance using a repeater. Now were Im living now (Oregon)seems takes at least 350 watts to do 45 miles due to mountains and hills. I mostly use 10/11/40m as my preferred band. I really want to try 2m ssb though from up high. |
Codeman
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 6:02 pm: |
|
2 meters simplex,50watts and a 13 ele. beam. look no further. 50 miles,no problem. now if your in to cw you could go 144.100 or lower and get a good 2 meter all mode,put that 13 ele. on flat side and really have a ball. not a doubt in my mind either one would work exellent for you. CODEMAN.
|
Znut
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 6:03 pm: |
|
Local communications are severely limited on CB because of the excessive man-made niose, especially skip.
Don't forget, the average base antenna for VHF is collinear having huge gain and very low angle of radiation (right on the horizon) compared to the very best vertical CB/10M base antennas. An 18' vhf antenna will have several 1/2 or 5/8 wave elements perfectly phased. Good for 12dbd or so. The same length CB or 10M antenna has one(1) 1/2 wave radiator. Not much gain over a dipole even with a ground plane. I am referring strictly on the matter of a vertical, omnidirectional base antenna since a beam is much less practical for base to mobile operation.
With a decent height/elevation VHF direct wave propagation will surprise you. Also, your signal will refract and the useful range will be about 30% beyond the actual distance to the horizon as seen by your antenna (there is a tech around the forum somewhere who could probably explain that 4/3 rule a little better.) As far as the path loss at 146 - 150 mhz vs 27 mhz, the difference is not that great. At UHF freqs it is another story. The coax to get an antenna up very high for UHF would have to be very low loss (and expensive) as well. So practically, you trade off the benefits of antenna efficiency with loss issues on UHF.
There is an antenna for 52mhz that is 21' tall (about the same as an I-max 2000) but is a two element collinear omni good for about 6dbd (I think.) I've heard good things about it. However, the best overall mobile option for 6M FM is a 1/4 wave whip antenna, whereas many 2M mobile antennas are collinear and have gain.
I'm gonna take a break for now. |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 7:37 pm: |
|
I stick with my original statement! |
Znut
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 8:22 pm: |
|
By the way, I can operate on a repeater in North GA approximately 100 miles away, on 2 meters. Yes the town has a good elevation and it is on this side of the foothills of the Appalachians but I can work there with my 20 watt IC-27A 2M FM radio with an 8' tall dual band antenna about 40' off the ground.
It is not tropo! Just geography and good antenna! |
Bruce
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 9:39 pm: |
|
In 1970-72 on 2 Meters with 4 stacked 17 elem beams at 50 foot on ssb easy to work 100 miles. Now on FM i could work 50-70 miles Right now i ve got a 9 db gain on 2 11 db gain on 440 stick ready to go back up at 20 foot replacing a 7db one the 7 db one was good for 40 miles. my skylab on 52 meg was being heard at 30 miles |
Znut
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 10:42 pm: |
|
I must say, I enjoy all of the local CB conversations. There are quite a few stations around here (some are on the forum.)
We have fairly good luck in a 10 mile radius with A-99's and barefoot radios. With no skip. With? That's a different story!
That covers what, 314 square miles? 1/4 of that reliably.
Bruce, with 4 boomers, did you do moonbounce? |
Bullet
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 10:53 pm: |
|
the best band.....hum...thiers just so many....
airosmith,ac/dc,eagles,CCR,THE DOORS,metalica
nickel back,santana,red hot chili pepers,white zombie,led zepplin,van halen,statler brothers,beach boys,
oh your talking about bands like 10 meters ect ok im with ya now.... |
Kd4amg
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 11:33 pm: |
|
what are the frequencies allocated for in the 135.000 to 143.000 Mhz. area ? some of these 2 meter mobiles will modify to transmit in that area, and we all know what is above 150.000 Mhz, but I am wondering what is BELOW 143.000 Mhz ? |
392
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 11:57 pm: |
|
Wow guys, lots of great info here. \
Both stations are Hams and both are base, Alinco DX77's and Icom 910's. Most QSO will be evening, just keeping in touch with wife and business and general QSO, but mainly calling home. Cell phone is very poor in the area. This is Dallas so rolling hills and trees are common. At home it's a typical large city. I'm leaning towards 6 meters, USB. It seems very quiet and QST states it's superior to 2 and 440 for groundwave. What do you guys think about that. A 3 element 6 meter yagi at the ranch house at 80 ft should hit my 3 element 6 in Dallas at 50 ft, with 100 watts. I think I'll try this. My goal is a clean qso with home. I stay out for a few days at a time and it's nice to call in.
What about using tht GMRS freqs. My rigs cover this range with about 35 watts and beams are smalland cheap??
Now since I have no neighbors, i's possible I may throw up a vertical about 50 feet above my 3 story building (85 ft at base)break out my Varmnint XL450, galaxy 88 and have some fun late at night. No TVI to worry about! Nearest neighbor, 2 miles!
You guys are great. I learn alot here,
Take care,
Tim |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Thursday, September 04, 2003 - 11:46 pm: |
|
Bullet,you kill me.LMBO. |
Simon
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 9:40 am: |
|
143Mhz down is INTERNATIONALLLY allocated to satellites - things like NOAA, ISMET etc, mainly used for weather. I guess some (unoffically) might be used for spying too.
We had a TV station (in Australia) put up a fight against moving from 137-144Mhz for many years despite complaints against it for interference to satellites and complaints from it against 2m users. I left town and it went to UHF. Oh yes I only caused problem to my parents when they watched that channel but that had to do with THIER TV antenna was on MY tower about 3 feet from my 2m antenna. Or at least no one else complained to me. |
Znut
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 10:12 am: |
|
You and your wife are hams 392? Cool. My wife has no interest.
Base to base, 6 meters would be perfect. Also you could catch those "magic" band openings if you were monitoring more often.
Early this summer I talked with several stations around TX on 6. So I'm pretty sure you will have others to talk with if you want in your area. |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 11:52 am: |
|
392
I second Znut's motion. With the antennas and power you have, 6 meters USB would be a good way to go while GMRS would more than likely be the worst choice.
Good luck and 73s.
Jeff, kc0gxz. |
Triplecguy
| | Posted on Friday, September 05, 2003 - 5:19 pm: |
|
kd4amg
Yes you are correct about the modification of most 2 meter radios down to 135mhz, however, up to 136 mhz is used for aircraft comm and is mostly am from what I have heard. It would be extremely unwise to play anywhere around that freq. As for right below 144mhz, there are a number of MARS (military affiliate radio system) channels down there that could be very active depending upon where you live. It would be wise to stay away from them, as well. Now around 137-139mhz there are some business band and public utility freqs that may or may not be used. I would suggest playing in the 160's on non government freqs to prevent yourself from being severly punished. Or, to be the safest of all, use the color dot freqs that over the counter business radios use, there in the 150's but shouldn't interfere with public safety. But they may be in use by a whole bunch of different folks for business and/or personal uses. Radio shack sold a whole lot of them for a lot of years. The only catch is that the power limit is 5 watts, or get into the FRS/GMRS freqs in the 440 band with an opened ip dual bander. Have fun,
DAN |
Bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, September 06, 2003 - 8:49 am: |
|
MURS IS LEGAL FOR YOU TO PLAY WITH USEING APROVED RADIOS
151.820
151.880
151.940
154.570
154.600
i use 151.820 to talk to a friend in st pete base to moble we get 7-11 miles useing the radio shack murs sets with 20 db gain preamps and a 5 db gain wip on my car and a 6 db gain CUSHCRAFT ringo ranger at his place at 40 foot.
NOTE....
It is not legal to "power down" a 2 meter radio and tun it here but wanna bet no one will care.
|
Barracuda
| | Posted on Monday, September 08, 2003 - 10:07 pm: |
|
Bruce,
I just picked up 2 MURS radios from Radio Shack this afternoon. They were $7.97 apiece +tax.
One is a BTX-127 (2w) the other is a BTX-128 (1w), both HTs.
The batteries are charging now. I'll let you know how they work.
73,
Barracuda |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 09, 2003 - 4:44 am: |
|
i have 2 murs ht's and in the open 2-3 miles is no problem ht to ht. 8 bucks each what a deal a pair of mine cost $175 and were worth it |
Barracuda
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
|
Bruce,
They both charged up nicely and I did some preliminary testing with them to guage their basic fuction and clarity. So far I'm impressed, though the ranges that I used them over were generally short (<1 mile) in mixed open and enclosed environments. By the way, I picked up a nother btx-128 (1 w) for the same price today. However, this one did not have the antenna, but it turns out the radio is a Motorola and I can get the antenna for about $14.00 online.
73,
Barracuda |
|
