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RCI 2990
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 2:31 pm: | 
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Why do some radio techs diss the new radios so badly? Is it because some techs dont understand them or they just dont want to work on them? My 2970 DX works fine and its a surface mount board radio. |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 6:56 pm: |
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RCI 2990
Speaking for myself, it's not that they do not work well, it's because the parts are not easily seen without the aid of a magnifying glass. Hence, it makes for a VERY VERY difficult radio to repair.
In my opinion, Surface Mount Technology serves only two purposes.
(1) It reduces the amount of space that normal sized componets need to do the same task.
(2) The cost of building a SMT radio is also very GREATLY reduced.
The less money spent in manufacturing costs, the more money goes into the pockets of the manufacturer. (And that's really the name of the game.) Even though SMT radios are the cheapest to build, the consumer DOES NOT reep from the benefits. If anything, the prices generally go up somewhat because of the magic words, "Surface Mount Technology". Believe me, there is NO magic there.
All of the parts in a 2950DX could easily fit into a chassis half its size and even smaller. Why do you suppose RCI didn't do that?? One of the reasons is, the consumer may possibly think he/she isn't getting their moneys worth. It's our mind-set. We seem think in our minds that we need a big sized radio to communicate with. It just wouldn't be the same if we were talking on a radio that has a hand-mic larger than the radio itself.
The only thing that is of normal size in your radio are the finales, some electrolitic capacitors, voltage regulators and a few transistors. All of which can be easily changed by the owner when a repair is needed.
But don't feel bad, the new generation Hams of today are talking on Chinese made 2000 + dollar radios that have less than $100 worth of parts in them. They're big radios on the outside, but you sure don't see much on the inside. Take a look inside of yours and you'll see what I mean.
Experimentation has gone out the window with SMT radios. What you see is what you get. At least those with the regular sized componet radios can still "play" and experiment. But I'm afraid their days are numbered also.
However, none of my above statements are saying that these new generation SMT radios do not work as well as the regular sized componet radios do. Saying so would be untrue. They do work, and work well.
It's sad, but radios are slowly going the way of the automobile. The only shadetree mechanics you see anymore are happily working on the older cars. Manufacturers of almost anything these days are making it more and more difficult for the consumer to work, repair, or experiment on our own things. We now live in a "throw-away" society. It's something like our way of life.... It's not perfect, but we except it.
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The above are only MY personal thoughts on Surface Mount Technology. I'm sure there are people here on the Forum that do not agree. But that's OK. I've been repairing radios for many years and I'm pretty much set in my ways. And probably too old and stubborn to change now. But, you asked and I responded.
73s for now RCI 2990.
Jeff, kc0gxz. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 8:01 pm: |
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DITTO ....
I work on 800 icom radios we have at the jail all are SMT ! if you read about a jail radioshop guy running around with 3 guys in white coats and large nets chasing him..... blame the radios. |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 10, 2003 - 10:49 pm: |
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Bruce
I'll be watching for those headlines in the news Bruce. Hopefully you'll recover before they send you off to the Funny Farm. Lol. You won't find any 6 meter work there Bruce.
73s
Jeff, kc0gxz. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Thursday, September 11, 2003 - 1:01 am: |
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Yeah ive looked inside my RCI 2995 several times (shame on me for removing to cover! LOL!) and the space inside is amazing!!! A guy could put 2 RCI 2950s inside the case!!!! But im guilty too. I like the big looking radios just as well as the next guy!!! No one wants to see a puny runty looking radio sitting on a desk thats smaller than the mike!!! Just aint' natural!! |
frasiercrane
| | Posted on Sunday, September 14, 2003 - 12:22 pm: |
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You guys should see some of the new motorola radios.. even the finals are surface mount.
One other reason they use surface mount is it greatly reduces the number of holes in the circuit board, I used to work at a place where we designed boards, I remember that when having boards made there was a per-hole charge, so the less holes, the cheaper it was.
Surface mount is a bit harder to work on, but they're not that bad if you know what you're doing.
One good thing about SMT for experimenters is if you're building your own circuits you can make an etched circuit board without having to drill any holes. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 8:23 am: |
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I work on icom f3/f4 all day and everything is on the board like you said even the final amp. Its the way things are done today we like it or not..... |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 2:29 pm: |
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Guess we all have to bite the bullet and deal with it.......... |
307
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 4:36 pm: |
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It also "creates" blurry vision.....I work on tons of them and would rather have regular parts...
307 |
Bruce
| | Posted on Monday, September 15, 2003 - 7:11 pm: |
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307 BLLLLuuuuu rrrrrrr y eyes? not here. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 16, 2003 - 1:42 am: |
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In a way its good. It sorts out the techs from the hacks in a big way.. Most Of the CB hacks that are here were I live will not touch a SMB with a 20' pole! |
ss8541
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:45 pm: |
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many techs in the cb area of electronics are affraid of smt's because many cb techs aren't really true electronic/radio techs. they know enough about radios to be able to replace parts until they get the right one. if you do that with a smt board, you are going to have a ruined board in a short time, and they know that. if you work on smt type radios, you need the proper test equipment to 1st track down the area of the problem, and then use that equipment to track down the faulty component in that area. a lot of these same guys lack nearly any type of test equipment. so replacing parts until they get the right one is their only option.
then there are those that really do understand electronics and radio theory, and have the proper test equipment. the majority of these guys who fit this category and are still working on cb's are in their 40's and 50's and even older. their eyes and hands aren't what they used to be. not saying that these guys are old, but i have had many older techs tell me that at their age, smt work was tedious on their hands and eyes. the younger techs who fit this category are in any other form of electronic repair except cb radios.
there are some cb techs out there that will gladly work on smt radios. they may be hard to find, but they are out there, just keep looking. you may want to contact rci or magnum to see who they recommend that is the closest to you.
now that i gave my 2 cents toward your question, i'd like to add a little more.
smt devices when implemented correctly are 1)more dependable than standard components, 2) more immune to vibrations and shock 3)give better performance in rf devices(radios) due to no lead lengths, 5) makes duplicating specifications in each radio better, which is also due to there being no leads 6) cuts down on interaction between components that may cause detuning, because they are always in the exact same place, which goes with reason #5, 7) other reasons that i can't think of right now.
the company that i own is an authorized warranty center for icom america. all of their radios in production at this time are smt. smt's are what i started with(motorola tech for another company) so they do not bother me at all. but i am young(26) and have good eyesight and my hands are steady, so we'll see in 15-25 years how i like them then. hopefully by then, i'll be like my last my boss and only be designing and maintaining communication systems and leave the component level repairs to the young guys.
the only radios that we have trouble with are the newer motorola radios. they are using the next generation smt's. the leads for the ic's are directly under the ic. and the ic's are usually under a shield that you can't remove with standard soldering equipment. you must have a special station to remove and resolder these shields and ic's. 'chipmaster' is one such station and costs between 15k-20k. so when we get to a point that we see a motorola radio that has one of these ic's bad, it goes back to the factory. its more cost effective for us right now to let the customer pay the factories 'flat rate' fee, than for us to invest in one of those devices right now. the 'professional series'(ht750,ht1250,etc) is one such model and about 75% of the whole circuitry is under such shields.
i don't see this in icom's or rci's near future, which is good because they will then cause problems for the techs that service their equipment.
i do know that rci has been or atleast tried at one time to push galaxy to smt's. galaxy refused. one reason was because of their loyalty to the guys who service their radios. but time isn't on galaxy's side. in my opinion, its just a matter of time before they are also forced to go to smt devices as more and more standard devices productions are being stopped. |
ss8541
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 10:48 pm: |
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bruce, you have 800 radios at a jail?? are the inmates carrying radios also??? |
Bruce
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 11:30 pm: |
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ss8541 ..... he he he smart-e-pants.......
At this jail we have 3000 inmates almost 1000 workers and officers.
(THIS IS A BIG JAIL!)
Just about all sheriff enployees carry radios we use a 460 mhz repeater system not trunking but because i could be sent anywhere in the county i have a 2nd radio which is 800 trunking same radio the road officers carry.
Our bigest building houses almost 1500 MAX inmates and is 5 stories tall at one point and we have a 2nd building that is 7 stories tall with 700 more MAX but low risk inmates in it as well as 4 smaller 2 story buildings 2 house women inmates 2 men in a medum level and 2 more buildings that are min level prisoners.
Add to this another 7 story building being build with all electronic controls and we have 500 cameras now and adding 200 more. So you can see 800 radios an't much. |
Czar
| | Posted on Sunday, September 21, 2003 - 11:33 pm: |
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SMT's really are not a problem,just have to have the proper equipment to solder and de-solder them and yes it does mean you REALLY have to know,electronics/rf/troubleshooting to properly repair these types of radios.I perform warranty work on the rangers,kenwoods,and there is no problem with them at all.ss8541 I also think you are right just a matter of time until ALL manufacturers go to smt technology. |
ChillyDog
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 10:19 am: |
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ss8541,
You stated very well what I would have said if I weren't feeling so lazy. SMT is good technology, and it does serve to sort out the hacks. I like it!
You're also right about the changes in eyesight and dexterity over time. I'm twice as old as you, and even with bifocals and magnifiying lenses I have trouble reading, and my hands just don't work as well as they used to.
It's funny, though: all I have to do is put a circuit under a 2-10 power stereoscope and grab a soldering iron in each hand and I can work with SMT as good as I could when I was your age. Seems to be the only part of me still working that well!
Best Regards,
Bob
P.S. For those who think SMT didn't exist 26 years ago, it did. We didn't call it SMT and all the current IC package types weren't in place, but back then many military RF products used "chip" technology. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Monday, September 22, 2003 - 1:16 pm: |
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TY SS8541 you gave the exact answer i was wanting !!!!!! |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 4:53 am: |
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ss8541
You're are right when it comes to Galaxy being loyal. But I'll bet you a dime to a dollar that when their and a few other companys loyality comes to an end, they will also be bringing the CB industry to an end.
CB is suppose to be a hobby. Look what's happened to Ham radio today. There are very few real Hams around anymore. These new Hams of today are spending thousands of dollars on radios that cost less than 100 dollars to build. They can't and have no desire work on their own radios. And that's what Ham radio was all about. Today, they are nothing more than appliance operators. Everything is "plug-n-play".
Yes, SMT has all of the pros that you stated. But it doesn't help the people that WANT to do their own service and repairs. Average Mr. Joe Blow can not afford to spend the money on electronic equipment needed to repair their radios. And it just wouldn't be feasible to do so.
SMT is where it's at for you since you have been schooled in it and I'm sure you are happy to be employed in that field. But it's a long ways away from us 50 and 60 year old Techs that have been in the business and servicing radios long before you were even born.
RCI 2990 was just delighted with your post for two reasons. One, he happens to own a SMT radio and two, you justified his reason for buy it in the first place. But when the time comes, he will have to have it farmed out for repair because he can't repair it himself. So, it looks like we not only have a new breed of Hams, we also have a new breed of CBers.
My schooling and electronics theory began with super hetrodyne radios and then into television when they were still using tubes. I'm thinking (judging from you age) your schooling had a great deal to do with SMT. And that's why I believe you are only seeing one side of the SMT picture. It has taken away the "hands-on" experimentation with radio communications. In my opinion, SMT doesn't belong in base or mobile radios whether they be Ham or CB. I bet less than 15% of todays Hams are really aware what Ham radio is SUPPOSE to be all about. They're nothing more than CBers with HF, VHF and UHF privileges.
A great deal of todays technology came from yesterdays real Hams. You won't be seeing to much in the way of technological advancements being made with the new Hams. They're too busy being glorified CBers with their push-button-do-all-SMT radios. It's no wonder the ARRL wonders why there has been a huge drop in the Ham ranks. Technology has hurt us all in all walks of life. We're spoiled now because we can have almost anything we want at the push of a button. We don't even have to think for ourselves any more. We have calculators and computers to do it all for us.
These radios that you're working on are being produced faster and faster and cheaper and cheaper. We have moved into a throw-away society. Not everything is throw-away yet but when the manufacturers of those SMT radios that you repair tell you that you are no longer needed and repair centers will be shut down, then it will be your turn to join us "Old Guys" and look for another line of work.
Even though we old Techs are forever reading and still learning and have more years of experience than you are old, like RCI 2990 said, I guess we amount to nothing more than radio hacks because, I for one, have now no desire to work on SMT radios. Mr. RCI 2990 doesn't want to hear how they are incredibly cheap to build and are a ripoff to the not-in-the-know consumer.
Your post was very interesting and well written. You pointed out to us all the Pros. But no Cons. However, you DO sound to me like you're also a hands-on person. Tell me how you feel when someone in the future with big ideas takes that away from you. When guys who have devoted most of their lives to communications in some form or another, find themselves on the eve of a new era, it can be seen as a threat to our business, our way of making a living, our way of thinking. For me, it isn't worth investing thousands of dollars into new equipment just to keep up with SMT.
Just so you know Mr.ss8541, this post wasn't meant to bash you in any way. Admittedly, you are the new breed of todays Techs. And I know you worked very hard to get where you are. Being where you are only proves that. But when you come across one of the "Old Guy" Techs, don't underestimate him just because he has no interest in SMT. Because he's paid his dues long ago and has years of experience under his belt. He lead the way from tube to transistor. Now it's up to you young guys.
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73s ss8541 and the best of luck to you.
Jeff, kc0gxz.
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Highlander
| | Posted on Tuesday, September 23, 2003 - 8:44 pm: |
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Jeff, just one point, I think you are right about the average ham of today is less likely to build or repair his/her own equipment, and also less likely to be involved in creating, innovating, experimenting, etc. But at the local ham club where I live, there are some young guys/gals that are on the cutting edge. Many of them started with no-code, at that! I think radio invention/innovation will continue to be influenced by hams and ham radio, judging from what I have seen.
Great discussion!
73
de N9RZF |
ss8541
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 12:10 am: |
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i think that you may want to reread my post again. i never said that i underestimated older techs because they had no interest in smt. if you had read my post closer, what i said was the exact opposite.
i said that many cb techs today are not real cb techs in the 1st paragraph. many of the younger so called techs who work on these gained there knowledge from 'clip-n-snip' books. they do not have true electronic training. many are in truck stops, becuase that is the only place that they will get enough business to make it. we are in a shopping center in the middle of a small city. our work speaks on the road, and the drivers find us.
then in a 2nd, and purposely seperated paragraph, i stated that the majority of real techs who are left servicing cbs are in your age range. most are not comfortable with smts because of dexterity and eyesight(you stated this for yourself in your 1st post). and some are like you(a 2nd reason given in your 2nd post) and just do not want to invest in the equipment, even if they can get a complete station to do all the necessary smt work to the rci/magnum line for $800-1500.
i never once said that older techs are idiots or morons, or anything like that. the older techs i have been around seem to have been much better educated than the younger techs. i say this from experience. its like the colleges teach you just enough to get you out the door(or either the guys my age are learning just enough to get out the door). i never had any formal training in radio or electronics. most of what i learned, i learned from studying books on my own(the internet has helped greatly also). but i was around other techs my age who all went to college, and this is where my opinion on the situation came from.
i'll give you another example, my dad. he has a college degree in electronics engineering and was into ham radio in the 70's. he built all kinds of projects and designed some things on his own. so i know all about -real hams- and 'appliance operators', but this all came to an end when i unexpectantly came around. his books is where i learned most of what i know. he now works with me and does nothing with radio component wise. he will talk to you about it, but will not touch one. he also took business classes at a community college, so he handles the business end of things. he is right at 50 and has no desire to getback into this again. and like you, he can't see the surface mount devices. i think the smt's played the biggest part in his decision to stay away from the repair end.
and yes, we live in a throw away society, but it is evident that you are set in your ways. you will not change for smt, and i have a feeling that you will not change for much else. but that is fine, like you said, you payed your dues to electronic servicing. i am young, willing to change, and made many contacts and studied all types of options before i decided to leave the motorola dealer i was employed by and strike out on my own. regardless of what you feel, we are a long way from 2-way radios(cb/ham/business band) becoming 'throw away' radios. even when we reach that point, there will still have to be someone to make that call. cellphones are all throw away now, but you don't have to send them back to the factory for them to make that call. the dealer does that and gives/sales you a new one.
i am glad you realize that i worked hard to get where i am. i worked very hard. we are a complete communications company. i made sure i had that all set up before i started this company. we design, install, and repair conventional/trunking rptr systems, public service dispatch consoles with integrated 911 recording, and just about anything else dealing with this kind of communcations. i don't see police/emt/fire personel getting away from radio anytime in the near future.
we also build police/ems/fire vehicles. the vehicles come from the factory to the customer and then to us for the lights, cameras, radios, computers, modems, radars, etc. i also made contacts with many of the cb/10meter manufactures and we are either warranty centers or recommended repair centers for some of these. one recommends a good deal of their out of warranty work to us because they know my background. we get radios from all over the country. many are from cb shops that do not have the equipment to troubleshoot and repair radios. i even worked on something with a large cb distributor/dealer, but it has not turned out too well due to the owners and my schedules.
as far as cb coming to an end, i find that unlikely. i see cobra and a few others saying to hell with it leaving the rci and galaxy lines, but there are too many truckers(the largest industry in the u.s.a.) on the highways for all companies to stop production. they'll just change everything over to smt, like rci has already done for their 10mtr line.
cb may have -used- to be a hobby, but today it is more a form of communication for truckers and hunters. many of these guys turn it into a hobby form, but it is still mainly for communications. if the cb industry had to count on hobbiest alone then you would be right about the cb industry coming to an end.
in any event, don't take anything i said here in either post as bashing you or any other tech that is older than i am. i think that there may be some signals crossed, but i don't feel you were bashing me, just stating how you felt.
let me wrap up this dissertation. bruce left me a calling card on another post that i may tackle tonight if i have the time.
richard byrd, kg4aij |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 1:50 am: |
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Kcogxz Im very happy with my "plug and play" radios very much sir! LOL |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 12:13 pm: |
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ss8541
You know what Rick? You are absolutely right. I AM set in my ways. Lol. But not in everything. Even though your dad isn't as old as I am, I bet you see a little of that in him also.
I'm not easily impressionable but you certainly impress me. You appear to be very gung-ho and are making your hobby-interest as your living. With your attidude, you can't do anything but prosper well in it. I'm sure you father must be proud. I don't even know you and I'm proud of you.
Take care Richard and may God bless you and yours.
Respectfully,
Jeff Clark
kc0gxz. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 24, 2003 - 7:40 pm: |
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ss8541
Intresting what your tring to do ...
Correct at $500-2500 few of the radios we work with are going to get tossed. SMT is here to stay the Icoms i work on ( which is only one of many thing we do out of the shop like i said this is a BIG jail ) are SMT everything except the speaker and volumn control is on the mother board. Also they are VERY dependable just about all the problems involve broken antenna conector broken frames and mashed earphone jacks due to remote mikes. I dont know what the line you do is like but the f3,4 types have 1% board failures in a year microphonics being the bigest one ive only see one go soure ear. 99% of all failures in this place are fixable here although we send a few to icom if the dependably of the radio is in question. Myself i have a IC-T2a and like our jail radios a brick love it CHEEP and works like the old timex. The next generation will be not only SMT but softwhere defined..... kinda like the computer radio setups that are out there only much smaller. Back when i was your age i was working for sears tv repair .... they still fixed them in thoes days ....lots of tube stuff still out there and people still wanted them fixed. heck that old stuff we carryed a 40 watt iron and a cat-a plut and the old tool roll ESD ?
never even crossed our minds.... a very diffrent world. Im going to stick around another 30 years to see when your my age what they will toss at you .... SMT will look to be the GOOD old days!
Bruce |
fancypants
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 4:30 am: |
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I saw the SMT 2950's about 4-5 years ago as prototypes. I told Ranger NOT to go that route for several reasons. One of them is as mentioned above i.e. most "hacks" aka "techs" will not know how to work on them. Since most "hacks" aren't going to tell you that they don't know what they are doing, they'll say that they don't work on "those radios" because they are a piece of junk. On top of that, those same "hacks" won't sell those radios. So now you've got dealers that will bad-mouth the product, they won't sell the product and they won't work on them. As such, the consumer that hears all of this stuff is afraid to buy one and those that did buy them can't get them fixed when they do break. Sure, production costs have been cut, but what good is a higher profit margin on a radio that nobody wants and dealers won't sell ? I can GUARANTEE you that the sales of Ranger's 2950's and 2970's are WAY, WAY down from what they were prior to going SMT.
Other than that, the 2950 DX series has some serious problems with it. It is better in a few ways than the original 2950's but not enough to make it a worthwhile venture.
As to Galaxy, they are slowly sliding over to the "dark side". While Ranger is trying to force the issue, Galaxy gets enough customer feedback that they know that most "techs" and consumers DO NOT want SMT radios. I don't blame them either as they suck to work on and don't do as much power ( as a general rule ). On the other hand, Ranger doesn't really deal with the public like Galaxy does, so they don't get near as much feedback. That's probably one of the reasons why they didn't think much about going to SMT and were so eager to make the change.
As previously mentioned above, ease of production and profit margin is increased when going to SMT, so it is a manufacturers dream. The main reason for this is that "robots" build smt boards and people build "regular" boards. Obviously, "robots" don't need as much food, sleep or pay as a person does, so going SMT means fewer mouths to feed and bills to pay.
If you folks REALLY don't want SMT radios, i would HIGHLY suggest contacting Ranger and Galaxy via email and letting them know. I've already given them my point of view ( many, many times ) and they know why. It's not until the consumer raises a fuss in a very vocal fashion and votes with their wallets that the manufacturers will listen. Do it NOW before it is too late.
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Bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 9:10 am: |
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INTERESTING ...
As a long time tech who's eyes an't as good as they use to SMT's bothered me only because i need octal assitance to see them. As for " writeing ranger" forget it sit back and enjoy the transformation from what your use to SMT ...just like 40 years ago when i was a young budding tech TUBES were king. SMT is cheeper but in many ways better ..... true a pain in the a** to work on. All day i work on UHF radios all of them SMT and like i said with dieabitic eyes it's a matter of a bigger spy glass .... and quit complaining. SMT has advanges one of which is you can make things smaller look at my ft-100 its smaller than a ranger 2950 but goes from 1-900 mhz all modes and on transmitt runs 100 watts! The next technolgy is sofewhere definded radios ... yep you plug a radio shell into a computer and make it anything you want ...... humm murs and 27 mhz cb in one radio could happen....but thats only on some engineers dream table right now. Like i told someone last week im going to stick around and see how all thoes 26 year old techs are doing then their 56 lets see if the changes are as many as ive seen in almost 40 years.... humm now let me go find my rist radio you know the 1000 watt nutron power one that came out in 2020..... got thoes were the good old days we had SMT not this new GROWN MOTHER BOARDS! man you cant even work on them anymore. You get my point. |
Keithinatlanta
| | Posted on Saturday, October 04, 2003 - 10:13 am: |
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Bruce, I GUARANTEE you, my Dick Tracy watch will out do your "rist radio with 1000 watt nutron power" any day of the week. Do you remember that watch?
HEY GUYS! This is one of the best posts that I have read! It has been very informative for me. Interesting enough, I see the same thing in the foodservice industry. I sell food so when you go out to eat, you have something to eat. Way back when, everyone made almost everything from scratch. For biscuits, you took flour, shortening, buttermilk, etc. to make biscuits. Now when you go out to eat, majority of the places serve you a biscuit that came in to them fully baked and frozen. All they do is thaw and reheat it. With todays TECHNOLOGY in the food industry, we have so many fully prepared foods that come in frozen or dry. But TECHNOLOGY has moved us to that point. A lot of food products are great and a lot are not. I work for a large food manufacture, we make all kinds of bakery products that you have to take the products to MAKE a final product. Dough into bread, or cinnamon rolls, batters into cakes or muffins, puff pastry sheets and squares, etc. I constantly fight the thaw and serve arena. A MAJOR part of that is also called LABOR! Just as you reference the tech that won't learn the electrical principals so they cannot do anything but butcher your radio, we have the same situation in the food industry. Restaurants will tell you they can't even get folks to come in and fill out an application, much less actually WORK. And that is regardless of age. I thought about what someone said above about not learning the in's and out's of the radio, just want to use it. I am not smart enough to do the electrical stuff, and it is not my interests. Yet I LOVE TO TALK on my radio. It is my friend on the road when traveling, whether I drive or fly across the entire southeast. When flying, I take a little Uniden with a small mag mout and use it in the rental car. No, I won't be able to talk all over the country. But sometimes all I need is directions or just someone to help pass the time while driving. Soap box just broke, good.
Anyway, a major THANK YOU to all you folks who put posts here. It helps me to learn and understand our hobby (notice how I said that one) even more. And yes, one day I WILL get that ham license. I have a great idea. Each of you buy a full tractor trailer load of the great products I sell, then my numbers will get better, I can take an extra week of vacation, study for my ham test, including CODE, and then go back to normal. Also, I can put up the two brand new antennas for my base that I have had for many many months. A Super Scanner and a PDL II Quad. Both are still in their boxes, unopened from the store! How awful. Just not enough time.
Keith in Atlanta |
ss8541
| | Posted on Sunday, October 05, 2003 - 11:18 pm: |
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hey bruce software defined radios are already here. you have 800 of them at your jail.
as for rci and galaxy sticking to standard components, that is going to be impossible unless they start making all of their own parts. the tx mixer has already been phased out by it manufacture and now all radios(rci and galaxy) come with a smt tx mixer. it will just be a matter of time before the other parts follow the same route.
i haven't seen any major problems with the 2950/70dx. i have them sent in from all over the country (had even more sent when i was working with another company before they stopped doing anything with radio) and the major problem i saw with them was final failure due to 'turbo/super tunes'. after that it was circuits destroyed by someone who did not know how to work on smt components.
i have noticed that the freq stability is much better. the rxer is more sensitive, and adjacent ch. rejection is better(the bleedover from radios several ch's away is better anyway). i also like the fact that the rx and tx ciruits are shielded to keep spurious signals from the pll and vco circuits out of the rxer and txer. there are some birdies present at 24.000 and 28.000mhz if the pll/vco is not tuned correctly.
galaxy is only going to the 'dark side' as fp put it because they have to. rci is slowly making more and more circuits for the galaxy line smt (freq counter, adder boards, echo boards, etc). but if the time comes that galaxy has to go smt 100%, they will be ready. they are already talking to techs who are proficient with smt troubleshooting and repair. they will not leave their customers hanging. you may not be able to get it repaired at you local shop anymore, but there will be some 'recommended' places for you to send it if it is out of warranty. they are already doing this with the standard component radios that are out of warranty. |
bruce
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 12:16 am: |
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ss8541
We have 800 PROGRAMABLE radios real software defined are still being developed and are being tested we are slowly getting releases about them but its still a bit down the road. Stay tuned if what they are working on goes its going to be cool.
SMT ( SIMPLE MINDED TECHNOLGY ) is here to stay
I know your right the F3/4 Icom is already being phased out its SMT is not SMT enough If these guys are bitc**** about 2959DX's they an't seen nothing yet. You know how few psrts you can get i have used MMIC amps (minicircuts) for more than 20 years the MAR-6 was my toy for most of the 80's and 90's last i looked they were making them in a SMT package im not kidding 1/4 the size of a gram of rice .... solder THAT sucker.
Ranger an't going back and the rest will follow... Tubes ant comming back and forget saving your dixey cups cause the south an't going rise again...... or is it?
Bruce |
ss8541
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 9:30 am: |
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yeah, i know what you are talking about, but if you look at the icom line( and motorola, kenwood, etc), they are already software defined in a way. for the icom, if you want a lmr radio(2 tone format) you set the software to act as an lmr radio. if you want a pmr radio(5 tone format), you set the software to act as pmr radio. if you want a trunking lmr radio, you set the software for the radio to act as that, and so on and so on. so its just not programmable, but actually defined by the software dumped into the cpu as to what type of radio it actually is. and you can always go back and change that. its just once pc and cloning cable away from being a different radio. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 10:28 am: |
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As i type im looking at my programming computer and on the icoms we can set is frequency tone offset key asignments these radios are all used as lmr's. TRUE definded radios will be minicomputers that run as digial radios .... at least in concept .....you will be able to take a board and tell it what you want it to do ... not just program it..... if the idea ever flys and i know its being worked on you could buy a radio unprogramed a blank like a blank cd then define it to do what you want ..... not simply program a cpu with rom and restricted hardwhere ....... the idea is neet one board fits all.... like i said a 27 mhz cb and murs set in the same radio .....its all in some mad radiodoctors lab right now but even now the FCC is working on how do we typt accept this when they finaly make it work. Honestly i think it will first found in the comunications market ( c-phones personal comunications devices ) but history shows if it works it will be found even into the home market before long. In 1963 i had a elecrtonics teacher state " this is a transistor one day they will find a use for it " and went back to teaching us tubes. I never forgot Mr Levys understatment.
Bruce |
Bruce
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 2:21 pm: |
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o on the dx rangers one reason they are more senitive is several mods that was done to the 2950 aftermarket was done to 2950dx in production. Also if i remember right the dx has a balanced FET 1st mixer that would acount for a cleaner radio birdy wise as well as better mixer gain. I was not impress with the 2950dx for fm it was ok however the 5054dx IS a very nice radio SO nice that i lent it to a friend and he bought it off me for almost what i paided for it. Now if ranger wold only go back to the old days ......kidding. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 2:43 pm: |
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Wow!!!! this post is getting HUUUGE!! |
Bruce
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 7:35 pm: |
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Cause ss8541 and me are talking DICK TRACY STUFF |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Monday, October 06, 2003 - 11:04 pm: |
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Hey Bruce.
When you said, "Now if ranger would only go back to the old days......kidding", I knew you WEREN'T kidding.
73s my friend.
Jeff, kc0gxz. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 5:06 am: |
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Jeff
I long for the good old days. The days of the polycomm and cadre 510 and neion relaxsation osc calling boards " goony birds " if you please. Building my copy of the bainbridge dual conversion adaptor to plug into the 6ba6 1650 IF in my he-15..... TOTALY cool radio you could hear some one only 3 channels apart! Then there are the Demco power modulaters another big advancement a 6ba6 driving a 6aq5 in a compresion amp ... a 6aq5 is a POWER tube ...hence power modular! Lets not forget the latest in peramps my new 6ds4 gosh less than 3 db noise and 20 db of gain at cb thank you ameico! Man what will they think of next! Then they runned all the fun why would anyone want a box with everything already done gosh even has 23 channles built ito it. Ranger has done this too its realy sad that you cant open one up and fix all the problems ranger had built it the radio. Now they have gone one step father they have shurnk everything so if your over 30 you cant even see it!..... thanks ranger ..... you right Jeff us old foggys long for thoes good old days! |
Kc0gxz
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 1:59 pm: |
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Amen to that Bruce.
And here I thought I was the only one that felt like that. Like I said in my other posts, there is nothing in the SMT radios that allows for easy experimentation.
RCI seems to think that all CBers just want to only turn their radios on and talk. That's not for me. I know there is far more to communications than that. I have always been an experimenter and to this day I haven't tired of it.
PS: I'll be sending you an Email soon with a question regarding low level audio. I know you're the man that can help me with this.
Later Bruce.
Jeff. |
Barracuda
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 3:24 pm: |
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Kc0gxz,
Maybe Ranger assumes that since CB'ers are supposed to use type accepted equipment that there is no need to allow for experimentation. I quess they missed the mark there too.
73,
Barracuda |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 8:08 pm: |
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Barracuda Its the industry not ranger soon SMT will be the way all electronics is built. I think ranger lissened but their hands are tied.
Its a fact of radio life and ranger is just leading the way .... the others will have to follow. |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:24 pm: |
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Now if they could figure out a way to put 35 watts of dissipation into a little 1/8x1/16x1/16 package they'd have it made. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 9:56 pm: |
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bigbob go look at a ft-100d they almost have done just that
http://elkel.ca/yaesu_a/ft-100d.htm
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ss8541
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 07, 2003 - 11:22 pm: |
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there is no difference between experimenting with the smt's and standard components. well maybe a little, but not much. you just have to be comfortable with them. after that it is all the same. smt's work the same as standard components, it isn't like tubes and transistors. the packaging is the only difference.
and you don't need high speed, low drag soldering equipment to do this. you can use one soldering iron and a pick to remove any smt trans in the rci/magnum line. for the caps and res, just the soldering iron. for any smt component just use some liquid flux. for the trans you heat each leg and gently pry up each leg with a pick. for the res/caps, you move the s.iron from one side to the other until the solder flows(using liquid flux means no time at all) and then knock it off the pad. for smt ic's in the rci/magnum lines, you'll need 2 soldering irons. put liquid flux on both sides of the ic, and then load both sides of the ic down with solder. move the 2 soldering irons up and down both sides of the ic until the solder becomes very soupy. quickly pinch the ic with the 2 irons and remove the ic. use a desoldering iron or a soldering iron with solder wick to clean the pads. now you are ready for a new ic. once again, all this has been done with standard soldering equipment. you just have to use logic to remove these smt components, not high dollar equipment.
for all of these, you now have a clean pad ready for experimentation or to replace a defecive part. you can use standard components for this. i have.
the bottom line is you need the courage to jump in with both feet. anyone who wants to experiment should have no problem finding a blown modem or cordless phone that has been hit by lightning to practice on 1st. i have a few around here for those who don't have one, just ask me for it. for those who do not wish to try, don't drag those down who do wish to by telling them that experimentation is not possible. nothing is impossible to a person who wishes to make it happen.
and experimentation is really for those who have an idea of what they are doing. people see it somewhere on the net or in a book and try it. the kicker is that 99% of these are not smt radios. so it goes to show that it doesn't matter if the radio is tube, standard semiconductor, or smt semiconductor. if you don't know what you are doing then don't do it. if you do know what you are trying to do and understand what you are trying to do, then you most likely know how to do it, and if you do screw it up you know how to correct it. the 'new breed' of techs who speak smt.
yes, there are some things out there that you just can't repair without the high dollar equipment(some i listed above). none of that has hit cb/ham radio yet and most likely will not anytime in the near future.
i understand that there are many techs out there who do not wish to learn how to work with smt's. that is a 2 way street. it is bad because there are many radios in production now that actual techs will not touch because they are uncomortable with smt's. techs who know what they are doing with radios. no matter if it is a standard component radio or an smt radio. then you have to look at the fact that many of these guys have 'done their time' and shouldn't have to learn smt removal/replacement. that is if they can afford not to learn it. if they can do this, hats off to them as it is evident that they have been successful.
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ss8541
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 12:19 am: |
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ss8541,
As your e-mail address is NOT listed in your profile and I do not have it so I cannot write to you and explain why your Post's were edited and deleted.
Please feel free to contact me direct and I will be happy to explain.
My contact information is in my Profile.
I have also forwarded your post's to the Forummaster.
Thank You,
Lon
Tech808
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Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 5:17 am: |
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ss8541
Your pretty much right on working with SMT's i remove them in a simular way to what you are using but no mater what they are harder to work with with and damage easer than the older stuff.
More than fearing them its your eyes that become the problem as you get into your 50's and beyond and myself with diebetas it simply makes things worse. I can remember being your age and working with techs who were my age then yes you can and do become set in your ways.... im the early 70's THOES techs wanted to work on tube stuff .... he he he they left the solid state stuff to the runny nose kid! Thoes who find it hard to work with the rangers now are in for a treat the 2950dx will look like a 40's boatanker 10 years from now..... like i said radios COULD be grown a entire mother board on a chip! Yep things are a changing ....... |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 2:28 pm: |
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Cant exp on SM radios???? I just did the PPC mod that SS8541 sent to me via email some tiome back and i had no problems at all! But i am 30 years old and my eyes are pretty good still so i have no problems seeing the components..... |
Barracuda
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 4:37 pm: |
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First, I think someone else suggested that doing a mod and experimentation are not necessarily the same. Second is a question for experimenters. When you do experiment, either in terms of add-ons to SMT based radios or scratch projects, what type of components do you use (SMT, thru-hole...)? |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 08, 2003 - 9:46 pm: |
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Is the ahem dx2517 smt or through hole,I wear bifocals,man what an invention,I can see again. |
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