| Author |
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Xlaxx
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 5:22 pm: | 
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Was reading posts on the DX-500 thread,... and was starting to get sadly disappointed with my 667V.
My 667V was purchased from Copper and I have my Connex 3300HP running into it with 1.5W-2.0W dk. The Connex swings over 30+. I run 8 guage wire to battery and a Wilson 5000 with just the standard 12volt alternator (60-ish amp) out of my rice-burner pickup truck and I see ONLY 350W!!!!! (tops)
The 667V was not CHEAP ($$$$) from Copper either. I think I should have bought something else.
Any recommendations/opinions??
Thanks!
XLAXX |
ss8541
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:32 pm: |
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the 8ga wire and 60amp alternator is your problem, not the amp. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:35 pm: |
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350 thats it?????? Hmmmmmm
The one i had a few years ago did about 550 to 650 tops. That was on a peak reading meter. I sure hope this thread doesnt get into another goofy meter swing argument.. Im just posting my findings when i had mine back in 1997.... |
Crazyfrenchmen
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:37 pm: |
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u should be seeing more watt's than that comming out of that. try setting youre dead key 3-4 watt's but i wouldnt go over 4watt's...Dan |
Smokestack
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 6:37 pm: |
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I have the same amp and Galaxy 99v that Dk's 1.5watts and get over 500watts with the 667V. Sounds to me like when I started and used 8 ga wire. I changed to 4 ga wire shortly there after and noticed a gain and reached 500watts. Also I have a stock 105 amp alternator. I would change your gauge wire to at least 6ga-4ga and try a HD alternator and you should see the 667v do around 550 tops.
73's Smokestack446/CEF 160 Georgia |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 7:15 pm: |
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8 gauge is minimum,4 gauge is verging on over kill,go ahead and get the high output alt.,but remember you need horsepower to turn that alt..A friend had a TS 350 driven by a stalker f9dx,had a 160 amp alt.all this in an s-10 blazer with a 3-litre v-6,the amp would stop the engine if it was not turning faster than 1200 rpm,by virtue of the drag caused by the alt.Bigbob |
ss8541
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 9:03 pm: |
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smokestack has the answer. |
Xlaxx
| | Posted on Saturday, October 11, 2003 - 9:57 pm: |
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I think SS8541 summed it up. Darn Toyota 4 cyl. pickup trucks with the 22RE motors! Great truck but the stock alternator probably can't drive it hard enough.
If I adjust the dk to 3-4W and replace the 8guage wire to say 6 or 4, would this work any better in driving the amp??
Switching out the alternator sounds a little $$$$!!
Thanks guys!
XLAXX
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Kattracker
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 12:33 am: |
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Xlaxx,
Your problem has already been answered but I thought I would chime in and reinforce the subject.
As a past ASE certified auto mechanic (not that it takes a mechanic to figure this) I can truly say without a doubt, ss8541 and smokestack have your answer. A 60 amp alternator is not even in the ballpark for that size amp and your wire is also too small.
Texas Star is a good amp and I am confident if you were to go to a larger alternator, bigger battery and heavier wire, the Texas Star would meet your expectations.
Kattracker  |
Bullet
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:50 am: |
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yap, thicker dc cable, and more alt. is what your needing. |
Highlander
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 7:59 am: |
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I would just get a couple deep cycle batteries for it, forget about replacng the alt.... |
Smokestack
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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You have a 60amp alt.....the Texas Star draws 57amps max. Try and get a bigger alt then worry about getting new batteries. That little alternator will either do over time or go out trying to charge all those batteries. |
Kattracker
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 2:24 pm: |
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Xlaxx,
I reccomend NOT going with the reccomendation of using a couple deep cycle batteries and forgetting the alternator.
Reason # 1
Deepcycle batteries are not intended to be used for starting vehicles. They are designed to deliver a steady flow of moderate amps for a extended period of time. Fine for running an amp, but will ruin the battery when repeatedly used for starting a vehicle.
#2
As Smokestack said, and he (I assume a he) is correct, a 60 amp alternator will not maintain two batteries and also power the ignition.
From a past professional mechanic for over 16 years I can truly and undisputedly say this. You need a much larger alternator. And if you have a large battery great, if not, go get the largest CCA amp Starting (not deepcycle) battery that will work for that vehicle.
Don't skimp on either one. If you get the big alternator and use a junk battery, that will overheat the alternator and wear it out.
If you get a big battery and use a small alternator you will still burn up the alternator and wear out the battery from repeated cycling unless it is a deepcycle. But as I mentioned, you can't use a deepcycle for starting a vehicle.
Would it start it? Yes,... but that nice expensive new deepcycle battery will last maybe three months and it is shot.
Good Luck,
Kattracker |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 3:39 pm: |
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Kattracker is right,I'm a former pro-mechanic as well,and deep cycle batteries are fine for electric trolling motors,but not for starting engines.My friend killed three birds with one stone,he got a motor home with a 440 chrysler 200 amp alt. and a 5000 cca battery,he can talk for hours at a liesurely 700rpm,of course you don't have to get a motor home or a 440 but that 200 amp alt. and 5000 cca battery would set you up for an upgrade later on like a 667 or a TS1200,think about it,save your pennies,it sounds impossible right now,but I wanted this rifle so I saved 10 bucks a week and by this time the following year I had enough to buy it,go to a wrecking yard maybe you can work out a deal for a bigger alternator a 105 would do the job and a good 750 cca battery is not expensive k-mart has them on sale all the time. |
Crafter
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 4:57 pm: |
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Look for a series 27 battery if it will fit in the battery compartment. Just a note I never had problems using a deep cycle battery in my pick-up and it would crank till the cables melted off. I used a 200 amp altenator though. |
Highlander
| | Posted on Sunday, October 12, 2003 - 8:52 pm: |
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I wasn't talking about replacing the vehicle battery--I mean a couple deep cycle for just the RF gear. I ran a Texas Star 500 that way, and it worked great. Much more versatile! |
Crafter
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 1:45 am: |
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I ran mine with 2 series 27 batteries which are the same type as deep cycle (meaning reserve capacity) But 27 dont say deep cycle and there cheaper. Usually came in lincolns back in the day.
I ordered a extra battery box for a diesel Pick-up and used two in a 79 blazer with a 200 amp altenator that I built using another winding out of a patrol car worked well got around 700 watts on my favorite dosy. I really think it did do around 600 - 650 I even used a small modulator down low and got more but I put a switch in to by-pass the 2290. Like driving a ts 500.
You know I burned up alot of good equipiment in the day when I used to talk AM on ch6 owned 2 terminators remember those 32 pills really all it was, was two sweet 16's tyed together Hambone built those for me ran the two 8 series semi-truck batteries mounted between the frame and the edge of the cab. Was really slick won many trophies just for installation. Wasnt till a JB 2000 almost killed me with its caps that my wife said enough. Boy spent alot of money back then (before kids) on all the things I NEEDED! LOL. I know I rambled but hope it helped.
XLAXX bottom line is use a good battery with a decent altenator with good wire leads and that 667 will scream ! |
Pig040
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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You can talk for a long time on a deep cycle battery before you bother it. I had my two deepcycles get charged by my alternator, but once a week I would give them a true "deep" charge off my battery charger overnight. I used this setup for several years with no problem. Drove an X force 2 driving 6, got about 1100 watts on 12 volts. |
Xlaxx
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 5:24 pm: |
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Ok guys,... a little more info for you. I bought an Optima Brand Battery Red Top #SC34U (700cca)(made by Interstate) about 6 mos. ago. I pulled the specs on my Toyota stock alternator, yep 12 volts, 60 amp alternator.
Is this battery sufficient?
Does anybody know if I can put a bigger alternator in this pick up?,... noticed that there were a bunch of mechanics and techs reading this post.
Does Toyota make a bigger alternator for this vehicle?
...man I've been mud duckin' it! LOL
Thanks
XLAXX |
southern runner
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 7:23 pm: |
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I rolled down the window,in shady grove,nm going west,and chunked,my at the window,and smiled,when I did it,because I knew,no more aggravation |
Kattracker
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 9:10 pm: |
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Crafter,
A group 27 is not a deep cycle battery. Not even close to one. The group size has no correlation
or ANY relation or connection as to being deep cycle.
All the group size is, is the outside dimensions of the battery. Certain cars and trucks take different group sizes depending on available space under the hood. For battery makers to know what size to build, they have common group sizes.
They know that such and such percentage cars and trucks take a certain group size and therefore have a basic idea of what to build by popularity.
Yes,...a larger group size will mean more reserve minutes because there is more physical mass to the battery. BUT, do not confuse that with being a deepcycle because that is like comparing apples to oranges.
A deep cycle will say DeepCycle on it, assuming it still has the label on it.
Never ever was, or will be, a deepcycle put in a car for starting purposes by a new car manufacturer.
Let me explain something.
A starting battery (which is used in cars/trucks) is designed to give a large amount of current (amps) for a relatively short time. Such as starting a car. Many cars take 300 amps or so just to turn the car over. More in cold weather.
A Deepcycle battery is designed to give a moderate amp delivery of anywhere from 5-40 amps for a relatively long period of time.
There is a combination battery that has come out in the last few years, but it is a sacrifice of the two. It is designed to do both, BUT, to do that, deepcycling and starting power have both been compromised. You can't have your cake and eat it too when it comes to combination batteries.
Sorry for the lecture but somewhere down the line you have been misguided and I thought you would want to know the facts.
Take it from a guy who professionally turned wrenches for 16 years and also sold batteries and specialized in auto electrical and charging systems. Me...
Kattracker |
Crafter
| | Posted on Monday, October 13, 2003 - 10:49 pm: |
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Well they didnt teach batteries at TSTI in texas were I went to diesel mechanics. Plus been doing other things for many years enough on that.
Optima dont know anything about those batteries what reserve capacity does it say? I've seen them in alot of race cars though. As for bigger altenator I bet they do or a after market I dont know if that thing is a bosch or not but I know if you want it, it can be done I would look and see if you can mount a one wire altenator in the same bracket. Sure would simplify things alot. |
Bullet
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 1:39 am: |
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kattracker,
that explains why my deep cycle battery died!
i was under the impression that it would be better as well.
about a couple weeks ago a local fella that runs a
10 pill mobile was telling me to get rid of the deep cycle for the same reasons you said above.
and that what i wanted for a good normal 12 volt
system was hi amperage reg car battery's because like you said the put out alot of amps rite now like needed when you key the maul, combined with enuff altinator to run things easy.
i was wrong in my thinking, but once its explained it makes perfect sence. |
RCI 2990
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 12:56 pm: |
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And i might add that marine deep syscle batterys are pretty much meant for things that have low amperage like trolling motors and fish finders. I have a marine starting batterys and a deep sycle that i use but i only use the deep sycle for the trolling moter.. |
Kattracker
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 7:45 pm: |
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Bullet,
As you say that could very well be why you had problems.
One thing I forgot to mention about deepcycles is,
they are designed to be recharged SLOWLY.
When used in cars/trucks the alternators charge them too quickly and oxidize the plates in the batteries. The average charging rate for a deepcycle is usually about ten amps.
Imagine using one to start your car. Yes, most of them will start it, but have massive amp draw and greatly reduce the charge. What happens next?, the car is running, and the alternator runs wide open because the voltage regulator senses the voltage reduction on the battery from previously starting the car. That is a big problem. As I mentioned earlier that a ten amp charge is customary for charging a deepcycle. Imagine 60 or 100 or more amps dumping into a battery that was designed to be charged at 10 amps.
Well,...the end result is premature death for the battery.
The best mobile set-up would be the largest starting battery with the highest CCA (Cold Cranking Amps)
and the largest alternator for the vehicle.
I run a 1000 CCA battery in my truck and it is a group 29. That is the largest that will fit in the stock battery tray. I could go bigger, but I would have to fabricate metal under the hood,
and a bigger battery is not needed for my set-up.
If you are using deepcycles to power a mobile amp in a BASE STATION set-up, that is fine in most situations as long as your amp draw does not exceed what the battery was designed to deliver.
Any other questions, or if you would like further info, drop me an e-mail anytime. I would be glad to help out.
Kattracker |
Xlaxx
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 8:19 pm: |
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Any recommendations on alternators?
What's a decent amperage range to go with?? 160-200?
Thanks
XLAXX |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 14, 2003 - 8:47 pm: |
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I've cut open batteries that were of a larger group size and they were mostly case because on top they said they were a small cca capacity,so cca has more to do with perfomance than physical size.With some large batteries all you get is more plastic,so be aware.Bigbob |
Bigbob
| | Posted on Wednesday, October 15, 2003 - 7:39 pm: |
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For your application a 105 should do unless you run a 1000 watt stereo at same time then go for the 200 or there abouts,but be prepared to jack up the idle a bit.Bigbob |
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