| Author |
Message |
    
Twa77
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 1:30 pm: | 
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after using an astroplane after my imax broke. i decided to go back to an imax. the performaance is just better for me with the imax. stations that came in strong , i can barely hear on the a'plane. my transmit suffered as well. as far as i am concerned there is no comparison. imax is a winner. |
mikefromms
| | Posted on Monday, November 17, 2003 - 6:39 pm: |
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Twa77, how did you do comparisons? Were they the same height? How were the conditions? Just wondering, it could be educational for us all.
mikefromms |
Twa77
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 10:30 am: |
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just by putting up the astroplane you will automaticly lose 20 feet in height by the mounting schemes of the antennas. the a plane only sticks 4 feet above the mast with the remaining 8 feet below. the imax all 24 feet are above the mast. i had them on the same "tower". 20 feet makes a heck of a difference.
tony |
Bruce
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 1:26 pm: |
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Twan77
Bruce's rule of = measurement .... things must be equal ... so .... its not all equal ok lets see what they do if both are at the same hight ..... i dont think you will see much diffrence if all is realy the same. |
Topten
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 4:30 pm: |
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Tony,
Sorry to hear that you got sub par performance from your astroplane. I always heard they were a very good antenna. The I-Maxx 2000 is a really great antenna. The top section busted on mine last year, I called solarcon's toll free number and told them about it, they shipped me a new upper section pronto via UPS. Just in case you ever need the phone #'s they are,
1.800.445.3991 toll free or,
1.419.865.5877 toll call
They really do stand behind their products.
Happy Dx'ing out there. |
Stickshift
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 18, 2003 - 8:31 pm: |
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Tony,
You dropped 4 s-units when you switched from the Imax 2000 to the Astroplane. Your signal was an S9, now it's an S5. Over a distance of 20 miles, the distance between myself and you, that is a major decrease in signal. I'm sure the Astroplane is ok for dxing, but it contributed to a very large signal loss on a local commmunications point of view. Good luck with your Imax!
stickshift |
Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 8:54 am: |
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There is NO WAY that there should be a 4 s unit change between those antennas. At 20 miles even a 10 foot change could result in a noticeable change just due to the clearing of objects. Now raise the astroplane untill its center is equal to the center of the imax and lets see this report then.
The gain of a Imax is at best 3 db the astro plane should be about 2db thats 1/6 of ONE S UNIT.
My astroplane/topone has been measured against a 1/2wave ringo 10 meter antenna and the change between them was almost NONE. The truth is a astroplane is about equal to a 1/2 wave endfed and a 5/8 wave is only ONE db better no matter who makes it. Myself i have run 1/4, 1,2, 5/8, STACKED 1/2, 5/8 wave verticals and the results have always been consistant with the acceped curves for gain ....... not a 16 db change as you proposed. |
Karatebutcher
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 9:29 am: |
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Very well put Bruce, Oh Happy Holidays |
mikefromms
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:38 am: |
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Everyone is right concerning their experiences in this discussion. The problem is ,as pointed out, is a different standard of measure.
Side by side I would guess you would tell little difference. By side by side, I mean the antennas tips being equal. On the other hand, I could see where someone would choose the Imax 2000 automatically over the Top One if they only have a certain length of pole to mount them on. I would have to think that 20 ft height advantage of the 2000 would give you better results. Well, Twa77 did the comparison and found a huge difference. The longer antenna certainly has some advantages over the shorter antenna from the get go. I've never owned the Imax 2000, but I've read enough good reviews on it to be convinced it must be a humdinger. I do own a AP Top One and it gave me the best performance from 9 feet off the ground. I'd say for really close to the ground applications it won't let you down. I now run a Signal Engineering Thunder 8XB and the AP is sitting in the back of my storage shed waiting for a home.
Whatever you use, good cb'ing to all.
mikefromms |
Twa77
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 1:31 pm: |
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they are mounted at the same height at the feedpoints.it is on the same pole the imax was. you guys can think should this should that but thats the way it is. in theory maybe it should be equal. and maybe some of you have had better luck. in my application the imax 2000 leaves the astroplane behind. sorry if this post offends anyone. the reason i posted this is because i have seen so many posts asking imax or astroplane. and being a user of both i figured i would posy my results.how many of you have actually used both? take them or leave them. |
Stickshift
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 2:43 pm: |
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I was simply stating the fact that his signal changed by 4 s-units. I may not be as technically qualified about some things as some of you are, but I know the difference between 9 s-units and 5 s-units.
that is all
stickshift
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Bruce
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 8:19 pm: |
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Im not doubting you saw a change the way it was done that would be a givin but your calling numbers that are not correct given the antennas being used.
This is what you stated how you measured them
"just by putting up the astroplane you will automaticly lose 20 feet in height by the mounting schemes of the antennas. the a plane only sticks 4 feet above the mast with the remaining 8 feet below. the imax all 24 feet are above the mast. i had them on the same "tower". 20 feet makes a heck of a difference. "
My problem with this is others on this forum will beleve they will see 4 s units change and run out and buy the antenna only to be very disapointed. Now when if you look at your mount the astroplane TOP is where the IMAX bottom is. When measuring antennas you must place the radiator in the same place .... normaly not a problem since most extend up from the feed point not down like a plans does. I think if this is redone and your astroplane is rased about 18 foot youll see the signal more in line about 1/6-1/2 s unit diffrence. Antennas follow rules no matter what a company might state and for numbers to be valid you must treat them the same way or you have missleading data. And 4 s units is simply not possible givin the 2 antennas invoved a 5 elem BEAM would not give that much!
Bruce |
Mr_Rf
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 19, 2003 - 10:47 pm: |
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Q. When is an s-meter calibrated to the 6dB rule?
A. Only on rare occasion!
Pre-amps throw off the linearity of s-meters, as well as golden screwdrivers. And to add a hitch some Asian manufacturers calibrate s-9 to 10uV instead of the 50uV IEEE standard. Go figure! |
Bruce
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 4:38 am: |
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Mr RF AGREED!
We both know S meter reading can be next to worthless still a 18 foot change in the hight of the radator is not going to help the measurement either. My entire point is the numbers must come from 2 antennas radiating from the exact same hight or your not looking at the same point in the sky...... or you not measuring anything. |
Stickshift
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 1:54 pm: |
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I'm just telling you guys what I saw on my meter. No need for this.
drop it all ready
stickshift |
Twa77
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 3:38 pm: |
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it is pretty bad when i am talking to a guy 40 miles south of me and a guy 20 miles north of me on a big stick 18 feet off the ground can hear and talk to the guy 40 miles south of me better than i can.we have the same radios, uniden grant xls. explain that one all you nay sayers. i didn't want to have to use this but i figured this is the kicker. this is no lie. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 7:21 pm: |
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I BELIEVE you i have every reason to believe all of what your saying.
Im just concerend that someone will fly with the 4 s unit thing.
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Alsworld
| | Posted on Thursday, November 20, 2003 - 9:46 pm: |
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I do not doubt either Twa77 or Stickshift in your results. But I think that's a whopper of an increase/decrease. Once again, not doubting you guys at all, but makes me suspect that there is a problem with the Astroplane. That is many s units of change.
I see where Bruce is coming from, if your results were to be considered the "baseline" by everyone who reads this, then shoot I need to invest in the Solarcon compnay  .
Can you think of anything that may have had an impact on the results? Now you guys know I run and swear by the IMAX 2000, but this seems like such a difference, I suspect something is up with the AP.
Once again, not questioning by anymeans what you guys are seeing/hearing, and YES I do believe you, it's just not typical. That's all. Hence all of us asking. No harm meant.
Alsworld |
Twa77
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:22 am: |
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i wonder myself why it is this way. swrs were very low on both antennas 1.2-1. the astroplane does dx just fine. my main thing is groundwave. touchy subject keep em comin bye for now
tony |
Bruce
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 10:46 am: |
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Tony
Not touchy at all it simply doesnt make sence given the 2 antennas involved ..... not your fault you only called it the way you saw it. |
Twa77
| | Posted on Friday, November 21, 2003 - 3:40 pm: |
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thanks everyone. good discusion. by the way i just want to make it clear that i am not mad at anyone and that i respect everyones opinions. you people are some of this forums most radio inclined members. i was just trying to get my point across. |
Sparkomatic
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 8:23 am: |
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4 S-units difference is like going from a 100 watt carrier to a 6400 watt carrier. |
Tech833
| | Posted on Saturday, November 22, 2003 - 11:01 am: |
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My question is, what was the height above ground?
I have said many times, in situations calling for the antenna to be very close to the ground, the Top One will outperform the Imax. In installations with no vertical limitations, the Imax will outperform the Top One.
Admittedly, the above test was not scientific. However, these members did see what they saw. I do not doubt that. I also do not doubt the 4 S-unit difference, as S-meters are far from calibrated measure. I doubt with all things being equal, they would see this much difference, however, ground effect could certainly make this much difference. Takeoff angle can account for 20 db or more 'field gain'.
I believe I was clear. Perhaps not. |
tony e. byrum
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 1:35 am: |
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OK guys. The IMAX is almost a 3/4 wave. So is about 5 db gain over a half wave. Add the height difference and you have the 5 s units. Tony, N5JVA |
Applejack
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 3:43 pm: |
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heres some more junk from me, in 1995 i had an Astro-plane on 4 sections of tower and 10 or 12 ft of mast. somebody i know told me antrons were better, so down came the astro-plane and up went the antron at same feedpoint height, making antron about 14' higher. i used it thru the week and on the weekend took it down and put the astro-plane back up. my usual contacts said the astro-plane was better.maybe they were giving accurate info maybe not. oh well, whatever. |
Buck
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 4:14 pm: |
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Imax is 5/8 wave. .64 to be exact.
Buck |
Bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 5:15 pm: |
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5 db over a 1/2 wave wow I would like to see that!
Again in 40 years ive never measured more that a few db between any 1/2 and 5/8 wave and on 52 meg we tested several at 20 40 60 foot and found gain consistent with the 1-2 db you would expect .... NOT 30 db or 5 s units |
Znut
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 8:10 pm: |
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WWWWWWWWWWOOOOOOOOOOOOOOWWWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!!!!!!
5 S-units! I'm ordering one RIGHT NOW! Super-duper gain and no rotator. Throw out the 8 element beam.
All jokes aside, there is a noticeable difference I've seen when folks around here have replaced A-99's with Imax 2000's. |
Bruce
| | Posted on Saturday, January 17, 2004 - 9:08 pm: |
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My point Znut lets see a real gain test between a top-one a i max and a a-99 same hight open fields test ill bet if they are treated the same 2-3 db will be the top end diffrence (1/2 s-unit) |
Xmeter
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 8:36 am: |
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Buck, The Imax is not a 5/8 wave as advertised. 5/8 = .625 and the Imax, like you said is .64 |
Peddler
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 10:30 am: |
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Planning on replacing an A99 with an Imax 2000,,,same height at feed point,,,same coax,,,same dirt under tower,,,same radio,,,same amp,,,same ole 50 watt mouth.
What will I anticipate seeing as a change? |
Buck
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 11:04 am: |
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Thats why I said .64 to be exact....Basically a 5/8 wave. Far cry from a 3/4 wave
Buck |
Cm3885
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 1:10 pm: |
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What was the avanti sigma 4 classified as? I know its almost 30' tall.. Definetly NOT a 5/8 wave!!!! Good talking antenna nonetheless..... |
Stickshift
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 5:22 pm: |
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Peddler,
An increase in gain and alot more bending action during windy days. |
Applejack
| | Posted on Sunday, January 18, 2004 - 9:53 pm: |
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peddler, with that said you may need to add more dirt under your tower. |
Tech833
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 11:57 am: |
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I feel the need to jump in this discussion one more time. I will use smaller words.
Here's the deal. If you can only put your antenna 30 feet or less above ground, the Top One will work better than the Imax 2000.
If you can mount your antenna higher than 30 feet above ground, then the Imax would be a better choice for both 'gettin out' and your 'ears'.
They do not compare at 60 feet. The Imax will work better than the Top One at 60 feet. The Top One will 'walk the dog' (I think that's how you put it) over the Imax 2000 at 20 feet above ground.
In smaller words:
If you can still see the bumps on the PL-259 connector on your antenna, if it is a Top One, you will 'get out'. If your antenna is high enough that you can't make out the bumps on the PL-259 connector, you will 'get out' better with an Imax 2000.
How was that? |
Tech808
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 6:09 pm: |
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 |
Scrapiron63
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 6:51 pm: |
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Tech 833, I think your trying to put us down man, I believe most here can understand regular words. scrapiron |
Tech808
| | Posted on Tuesday, January 20, 2004 - 9:37 pm: |
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I do not think Tech833 was trying to put anyone down on the Forum.
There are so many New Forum Member's who have never been in Radio before and DO not understand a lot of the article's and post's & term's used in post's.
There are also Many Forum Members who are not completely / fully registered to allow them FULL Use / Access of the Forum and the Many area's and Information that the Forum has to offer it's member's.
And then you have those Forum Member's who do not know about the Search Area or those who will not Search for Question's / Comment's to read the many Post's and Reviews that have been done or posted on various products.
I would Honestly guess that I have had at least 300 or more e-mails in the last year asking why do we not explain ourselves in "SIMPLE" Terms so everyone can understand.
Heck, I have even posted links for people to go to for information and had them reply in a post, that they did Not want to click on the link and read the answer to their question's.
When we the Tech's make a post we try and make it where Everone can understand what we are trying to say. And sometimes we fail and go over board (too technicial).
We are not trying to put anyone down, but we do try and make it where everyone New or Old to the hobby can understand us.
We will continue to try and put as much information as possible in the Forum for the Member's to use, and make it where everyone can understand it and enjoy it.
Lon
Tech808 |
Tech833
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 11:42 am: |
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Scrap-
No way. Never. Absolutely not.
Since some of what I write seems to leave confusion with some forum participants, I wanted to leave no doubt to what I was saying, and experiment with some humor too. I admit, I am inexperienced at using humor in my explanations, so I may have adjustments to make. I am laughing at myself and nobody else.
I have been doing a lot of listening to the 11 meter band lately and some of what I hear causes uncontrolled laughter. I was trying to incorporate some of what I have heard into my post for the comedic effect. At least it made me laugh...
Know this- I would NEVER put down someone here. I do not think I am better than anyone else, or smarter than someone else. I will not have a laugh at anyone else's expense. Except Hillary Clinton. Or her puppet. |
Peddler
| | Posted on Wednesday, January 21, 2004 - 7:24 pm: |
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The Sigma IV (AV-174) was rated at a 3/4 wave omni directional antenna. Produced a 6 DBi gain over an isotropic source. 27ft tall. |
Cm3885
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 2:34 am: |
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27 foot tall sounds right... yeah but man is it a PAIN to put up on a roof!!!!! Good antenna though.. |
mikefromms
| | Posted on Saturday, January 24, 2004 - 9:11 am: |
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I second the Hillary Clinton comment. We'd better get a good opponent to run against her in 2008. Let's run Tech 833 or 808. If these techs can run this forum they can run the world!
mikefromms |
Tech833
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 2:06 pm: |
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You do not want me to be President.
I would immediately close the borders and deport all non-citizens who are not here legally. Then, I would mandate English as the national language and ban states from having any official forms in any other language. Then, I would abolish all the gun control laws that violate the 2nd. amendment to the Constitution. Then I would ban homosexual marriage or public display of homosexuality (other than speech, which is protected). Then I would ban broadcast of indecent language. Then I would discontinue government funding of public broadcasting and the arts. Then I would clean house at the FCC and return the department to their primary job, which does not include conducting auctions.
That's just the first day in office. You don't even want to know what day 2 would bring... |
Sinner
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 3:22 pm: |
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Tech 833 has my vote already. |
Buck
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 4:53 pm: |
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Sounds like presidential material to me!!!
Buck |
mikefromms
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 5:24 pm: |
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I'd vote for you.
mikefromms |
Stickshift
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 5:57 pm: |
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And this relates to an Imax 2000 how? |
Tech808
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 6:51 pm: |
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Well let's see Tech833 wrote the GREAT REVIEW's for the Copper Forum here on the A99 Exposed and the IMAX 2000 Exposed so I guess he could also Expose Washington for what it really is.
HEY! 833 can I be your VP 
Lon
Tech808
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Tech833
| | Posted on Friday, January 30, 2004 - 9:32 pm: |
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No, Lon. I need to to be the new director of the FCC. It pays better anyway. |
Skilletlicker
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 8:12 am: |
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at the same mounting height,i find no difference
between anttron 99,imax2000. or radio shack 1/2
wave,the i max is just longer and harder to handle
in the spring i think i will go back to the 1/2 wave with radials added
skilletlicker |
mikefromms
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 6:51 pm: |
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Before you go back to 1/2 wave be sure you are comparing these antennas with the bases of the antennas above 30 feet in the air. Then, it is out there 20+ miles that the difference is heard on both ends.
mikefromms |
Tech808
| | Posted on Saturday, January 31, 2004 - 7:22 pm: |
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Skilletlicker,
Go to the Subscriber (Preview) Area of the Forum and Click on it.
Then Click on:
Articles
Then Click: on
How to Choose a Ground Plane Antenna
Tech 833 has all the answers you need there as he has already done the work for everyone and the testing for you.
Hope this Help's
Lon
Tech808 |
Skilletlicker
| | Posted on Monday, February 02, 2004 - 1:21 pm: |
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i have tried both the imax 2000 and the 1/2 half wave radio shack,and anttron 99 mounted on the sma pole at the same height,i can tell no difference,also tried the top ten with an extra five foot pole and wasn,t impressed with it at all
skilletlicker |
Co_786
| | Posted on Saturday, February 14, 2004 - 9:47 pm: |
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Tech833 wrote the GREAT REVIEW's for the Copper Forum here on the A99 Exposed and the IMAX 2000 Exposed
Does that mean that this is your website Tec833 ????
http://www.qsl.net/kg6aoh/a99/ |
Jto127
| | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 8:53 am: |
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Co 786
thanks for posting Tech883 reviews GOOD STUFF
jto127 |
Tech833
| | Posted on Sunday, February 15, 2004 - 11:44 am: |
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That was a contribution.
If you would like to see my web site, send me an email. I do not publish my URL anywhere since I am trying to stay out of the search engines. So far, I have been successful. |
