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Message |
    
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 327
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 3:25 pm: | 
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I know a man who wants to trade a Kenwood 850 about 10 years old in good shape for my Galaxy 2517 and KLV-250 amp. He says he knows nothing about the ham rig and wants something more simple to operate. He's 86 y/o and I consider he's a friend. The age of the radio is the biggest drawback I have, but it would be nice to have HF coverage. What are you thoughts?
Mikefromms |
Honkytonkman593
Intermediate Member
Username: Honkytonkman593
Post Number: 159
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 6:19 pm: |
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if the radio is moded or not and it works it would be a heck of a deal in my opinion. one of kenwoods best original radios. good luck try it out.....honkytonkman 593 |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 6:41 pm: |
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TS850's are great radios. QUADRUPLE conversion, RF speech processor and lots of goodies. It's the top performer of Kenwood's line at the time it was made. If it hasn't been hacked up by someone trying to make a CB out of it - it's a great deal. |
Lowpowerhal
Intermediate Member
Username: Lowpowerhal
Post Number: 370
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 8:14 pm: |
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Mikefromms The Kenwood TS850 is a nice radio 100 watt rig , has built in auto tune . If it has filter installed such as a yg-455c and cw filters a big plus. if it comes with a mc-60 mic another plus. My suggestion is to try it out, and see if you like it. Price range around $650 in great running shape. Hopes this helps!
73'S |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 328
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 21, 2004 - 10:42 pm: |
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I made the trade. It has been modded for cb. The thing has modulation to spare. I love the auto tune. It tunes fast and the coverage is great. The receive on cb is not that great. I'll need to find a way to improve the receive. If you have any suggestions let me know. If I can't improve the receive I can always recieve on my walkie Talkie hooked up to base antenna. LOL..
BTW, it came with the desk powermike, handmike and matching speaker and of course the 40 amp power supply. Big power supply.
Thanks for comments and any help on the recieve question.
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 4:58 am: |
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What exactly do you mean by the receive isn't that great? It should be better than the radio it replaced. Did you read the manual yet to learn all of it's options and settings? Is the RF gain turned all the way up? What filter is selected? Is the I.F. intercept centered? Is the notch filter on?
It sounds like you got an outstanding deal with the base microphone, external speaker, and power supply included. What desk microphone did it come with? Does the external speaker have filters? Is the power supply a Kenwood power supply or some other brand? |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 329
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 7:16 am: |
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I read the manual. I don't know what is wrong. It has the ham desk mike and aston 40 amp P/S. It also modulates backwards. Sounds like an alignment is needed.
mikefromms |
The ELCO guy (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 8:07 am: |
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@ Mike...
I have good news and bad news.
First the good news. The maker of the rig you bought has a history of making very good radio equipment.
Now the bad. Multiple bad. I agree it sounds like the rig has been dittled with for CB and messed up the alignment. I have had to send my radio back to the factory for repairs both minor and major in nature. The first problem is shipping--heavy radios cost a lot more to ship. The second will be the bill you get from the techs at the factory--they aint cheap. The smallest bill I ever got was $150. REMEMBER before you send the radio off CALL AND ASK if the factory will even consider fixing a radio that has been modified for CB. From what I am hearing some radio companies will not repair a radio that has been modified for CB illegally. So call and ask before you send. It is also a good idea when you write the note telling the tech what is wrong to request that he lets you know an estimated cost on the repairs and shipping back to you.
Suggestion...
I would let the factory do the repair work for you. Its more expensive but they will give you a warranty on the repair and make sure that the rig is up to factory specs. Also when sending the radio to the factory put a ton o packaging peanuts in the box with the radio and DOUBLE BOX the package. Just take my word for it, DOUBLE BOX--save yourself a major repair bill due to clumsy shipping clerks.
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Yankee
Intermediate Member
Username: Yankee
Post Number: 355
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 12:28 pm: |
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BTW: This is not the kind of radio you would take to a CB shop or play with yourself. It's best to send it to a Kenwood service center. Just need to remember they most times ask a $75.00 bench fee, just to open it up and put it on the test equipement to check it out, before you know what is wrong with it, many times I've heard fellow hams speak of a total service charge of $250.00-$300.00, this includes the $75.00 bench fee. They charge by the hour plus parts. Also you'll have the round trip shipping charges. The Kenwood service centers charge $75.00 an hour and well worth it. Your rig will come back acting like new. |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 1:36 pm: |
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It modulates backwards? What do you have the carrier set to? It sounds like it's set too high. It needs to be 25 watts or less, and I'd suggest no more than 20 watts. It should then modulate forward nicely. Set the carrier without the speech processor turned on. I don't know how the speech processor works on the TS850, but the compression processor on my TS450 makes AM operation tricky. |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 2:14 pm: |
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It never hurts to have a radio checked out by a qualified technician, and a precision alignment is a good idea with a radio of this vintage. But before I'd do anything with it, I'd suggest you carefully read the manual. It's very detailed and takes some time to absorb it all. Follow all of the instructions to the letter, and see if it behaves normally.
This is a radio that was built from the ground up to operate on SSB - not AM. It's not a CB. For AM it is low level modulated and then amplified - just like on SSB - so it's adjustments are touchy and even finicky. The carrier should be no more than 25 watts, you should adjust the microphone gain by switching the meter to ALC function and watch for just a little movement which will probably mean no amplification or very little amplification depending on the microphone.
I don't think that because the general transmit modification has been done that it's necessarily been hacked or dittled with. I've never heard of the factory or any other service facility refusing to work on a radio that has been modified for general transmit. They're in business to fix radios after all. Hams are fond of modifying radios just as CBers are, and sometimes do things that they can't fix, so they're accustommed to getting radios that don't even work in for service. They are expensive though.
Generally speaking the only thing I know that some people do - and I HATE that they do it - is deactivate or adjust the ALC. Sometimes it's just a transistor that has been removed or clipped and sometimes it's something else. The easy way to tell if that is the case is to set the AM carrier to 4 watts and really pump up the microphone gain. If the limiter is still operational you won't see more than 16 watts PEP of output from a constant whistle no matter how high the microphone gain is set. If you do see more, the limiter may have been cut or adjusted. The sure way to tell is to watch the output on a station monitor, but you'd have to have one or access to one to do that. |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 599
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 4:16 pm: |
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Great radio, great deal, you have to spend 100 or more to get a kenwood speaker not to mention the couple of hundred for the power supply, not even counting the mics. The thing that a lot of people do to the 850 is hit it with too much mic power, and it overmodulates the radio badly. I use a non-powered Heil mic on mine, I like it much better than the MC 60 or 85 that I used on it prior. The recieve should be better than most of the cb's you have used, I did have a connex once that came close, but it blows most cb's away. I would start from the beginning, and put the original non power mic on first and see what happens. Also, with all the buttons and dial check to make sure one of your noise blankers is not on, they are easy to overlook. Mine is loaded with filters and with all the bells and whistles it is easy to overlook something. Good luck
Rich |
Kirk
Intermediate Member
Username: Kirk
Post Number: 260
Registered: 6-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 5:35 pm: |
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Not to split hairs here, but the 850 is a triple conversion, not quadruple conversion supehet. I think only the 900 series is quad. And I don't think I'd personally say anything about CB when talking to Kenwood. As far as their concerned, this has been "MARS/CAP modified." Good info from both Racer and Elco. It's a great rig! I had one and they are superb.--73 and GL |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 330
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 6:24 pm: |
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Thanks for the infor and keep it coming. You're right on about the overmodulating. I'm going to use the regular mic tonight. Also, I'll try that test with ALC. As far as the receive, it seems to filter out signals that are on out there. My 2517 could outhear it as it is now. There must be something I'm overlooking but I've read the manual and tried everything I know at this time. If all else fails, is there a pot I can turn to up the sensitivity of the receive?
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 6:53 pm: |
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Kirk - You're right. I guess I confused it with the TS870 which is quad conversion. |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Wednesday, December 22, 2004 - 7:29 pm: |
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"If all else fails, is there a pot I can turn to up the sensitivity of the receive?"
Yes and no. It would involve tuning the entire receiver chain - there isn't just one pot to turn. You would want to get it professionally aligned and they would get it back on track.
Do you have the attenuator on? Sometimes I hit mine when there is a local pounding away on a close frequency because the receiver is desensitized. Then I forget to turn it off.
I don't want to sound like a snob, but we're talking about a radio that retailed for $2000 vs a CB. The Kenwood is a LOT MORE radio - especially the receiver section. While it is possible that the radio is not working properly, it's a lot more complicated to use than a CB and it's more likely that you're missing something.
My TS450 is quieter than any CB I have - but that doesn't mean it's not as sensitive. To the contrary, it more sensitive and MUCH MORE selective. I get very little bleedover or splatter because the receiver is so tight.
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Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 332
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 7:05 am: |
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It only really grabs the strong signals. Mobiles out 10 or 15 miles are barely heard. It is quiet but too quiet in my opinion. Keep the answers coming.
Later on, I'll probably swap it for something else anyway, but I'd like to really give it a fair shot.
mikefromms |
Mike0228
Junior Member
Username: Mike0228
Post Number: 20
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 7:07 am: |
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The 850 is a great rig. I had 2 on my desk at one time. That's how much I liked it then sold both when a TS-870 became available. All I can say is read the manual over and over. Even if you end up having to send it for tweaking you got a deal most of us only dream of. Also look on the web because there is a wealth of info out there for the 850. Good luck.
Mac |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 23, 2004 - 8:09 am: |
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From the way you describe, it really sounds like the attenuator is on.
Do you know someone locally who has a Kenwood so you could take yours there and compare the two? Maybe he could look it over and see if there is something that you might be missing.
Mike0228 - How would you compare the 870 to the 850? If I had the cash I'd have an 870 on my desk too. |
Mike0228
Junior Member
Username: Mike0228
Post Number: 21
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Friday, December 24, 2004 - 8:06 am: |
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Actually Racer they are very comparable if you have all the filters in the 850. Being able to dial in the bandwidth with dsp on the 870 is the most convenient feature of the radio. However, as nice as the 870 sounds (receive) it has a quality of being somewhat artificial. After a year with the 870 I sold it and got an FT-1000MP MKV Field. I only added a 500hz filter for RTTY until recently adding Inrad's roofing filter. Right now I feel I don't need any other additional filters and believe the Field is a keeper. I demo'd both the Field and the Icom ProII. In my opinion the Icom also had the artificial sound and in person looked like a toy. I know dsp is the future but I prefer the analog sound. With the Field I can choose to turn on dsp if needed.
Mac |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 335
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 10:34 am: |
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the more I learn about this radio the more I realize what a deal I got. I've got my am modulation straighted out and have learned a procedure to open up the ears. I won't get in a hurry about that. That vox thing is cool. And all of the matching equipment is really nice looking. Got to get a long wire up!
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 11:56 am: |
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Great! The Kenwood fans on the forum agree that you got a great deal - I certainly do. I hope you like it after it all sinks in. It take a little time to learn what you will and won't use on a regular basis. I still get out my manual from time to time with my TS450 and I've had it for 7 years.
From what I understand the TS850 has some attenuation built in for the AM Broadcast band, so it's not a terribly great receiver for AM DXing without some modification, but that it should be a great shortwave receiver with a long wire.
Have you done the frequency adjustment with WWV yet? I believe that radio comes with the SO2 TCXO already installed, so once you've zero beat with WWV you should be dead on frequency all of the time. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 337
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, December 25, 2004 - 9:01 pm: |
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No, I haven't messed with the WWV yet. BTW, I'm a ham. I can talk on any of the bands. I need to brush up on the rules. This is my first HF rig. I've been a ham 13 years and never owned an HF rig. I finally got the power mic ajusted with the carrier and the mic gain backed off and great reports in dx. Even am..ers are complimenting it,even though its "not as loud" as the 2517. Loud is not everything.
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 7:40 am: |
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Cool - there are tons of things to explore on that rig - more than on my TS450.
Too bad the speech processor doesn't work on AM or you'd have a really puchy signal. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 338
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, December 26, 2004 - 9:32 pm: |
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It sure works on ssb! Wow!
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 3:03 am: |
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I bet it does! There is no better type of speech processing than RF clipping. I have some stand alone speech processors that use RF clipping. They connect between the microphone and radio, so you can use processing in every mode. It's excellent.
Did the radio come with any optional filters? |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 606
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 9:11 am: |
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Keep the book handy, I have had my 850 for years, and every once in a while the book still comes in handy! The audio may not be booming, but it is the kind of signal that just seems to cut through other signals. You are just always there! I use a heil mic on mine, and with that mic your voice is your voice, sounds really true. Good luck, that is not a trade bait radio, it is a keeper!
Rich |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 339
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 6:14 pm: |
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I think I agree. I have talked am skip and ssb dx and got good reports. I'm thinking about driving an amp, but the radio modulates backward on am which is where I want the amp. Dumb question, but how would the amp respond and would it hurt it?
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, December 27, 2004 - 7:01 pm: |
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Does it modulate backward even when it's set to a carrier of 20 watts? Have you tried less? How do you know it's modulating backward? Is it showing on the radio's meter or some external meter?
Amplifiers don't care what signal you put into them as long as the level is right. Why would you need more than 100 watts PEP? |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 5:15 am: |
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Mikefromms - Have you figured out the settings for AM yet? |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 349
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 5:58 pm: |
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Ok. I've run the carrier way back and the mic gain way back. That has cleared up the modulation on am. It doesn't seem to matter whether I'm running full power or just a few watts, the radio modulates backward on other people's s-meters. I'll try some more radio checks.
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Thursday, December 30, 2004 - 6:16 pm: |
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Have you used the ALC function of the meter to adjust the microphone gain? You want to adjust the gain to the point where the meter just starts to move on voice peaks. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 353
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 7:01 am: |
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Would I be loud enough with it turned down that low on am?
mikefromms |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 617
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 10:38 am: |
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Mikefromms,
Something is mal-adjusted somewhere, On my 850 I run a 25 watt carrier, it swings to 100, and I run the mic gain at about 95 percent, but I am not using an amplified mic, I am using a heil gold line. I use the 25 watt carrier, because that is the lowest I get full power out without an amplified mic. I had nothing but problems trying to run an ampified mic on this particular radio, as they are prone to over modulation on AM.
Rich |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Friday, December 31, 2004 - 12:51 pm: |
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Yes, you'll sound great.
When the meter is set to ALC it shows the action of the ALC circuit in the radio. The ALC circuit is the modulation limiter. It functions to keep the modulation level from exceeding 100% and should only work on your voice peaks. You can push the circuit a little to slightly increase the average modulation level, but keep it in the suggested range indicated on the meter.
Heil microphones have low output - Bob Heil manufacturers the elements that way on purpose and says so on his website. Even with a low output microphone, Pig040 has to run less than 100% microphone gain. I run my MC-60A unamplified and use even less gain than Pig040 because I watch the meter and adjust the level accordingly. When I use the MC-80 and MC-85 amplified electret microphones I adjust the gain levels again while watching the ALC meter function so I have the correct input levels.
If you want to sound nice and loud like an AM CB radio, you'll need to get a compression microphone like a Turner +3, Turner Super Sidekick or Shure 526T. You'll still need to adjust their output by watching the ALC meter function to get it right.
All CBs have compression built into their audio circuit - the level varies by manufacturer. That's why they all sound pretty loud even right out of the box in comparison to an amateur radio.
Amateur radios have very little compression built into the circuit because hams are notoriously picky about their audio. They choose microphones and other audio processors to get the sound they are looking for. They also have the option of turning on the speech processor to add compression if they choose.
Your TS850 will never sound like an AM CB by itself because it was never intended to sound that way. It was meant to sound cleaner - like an amateur radio. |
Mikefromms
Intermediate Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 355
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, January 01, 2005 - 5:31 pm: |
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Thanks for the feedback. I'm getting some really good reports lately. One guy even commented it didn't sound like the same radio. The audio is good and smooth now on am. Now to increase those ears on am......it makes me hurt to think about soldering a wire between two points inside that rig.....
mikefromms |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 3:50 am: |
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Great! I love my TS450 and got a similar bargin on mine, so It's kinda like I'm vicariously going through it all over again. If you're like me, you'll only grow to love it more as time goes by.
" Now to increase those ears on am......it makes me hurt to think about soldering a wire between two points inside that rig....."
Is that the broadcast band modification? I know my TS450 is excellent as an AM radio tuner, so you should really like it. I understand your trepidation about taking a soldering iron to the radio. I don't know that I could do it. Good luck! |
Patzerozero
Intermediate Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 304
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, January 02, 2005 - 10:17 pm: |
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i know you read my post somewhere, mikefromms, about my icom ic735 & backwards modulation on AM. on a scope it shows everything is good. on my SX100 it shows, right now, 40w dead key & swings 20-90. adjusting mic gain to get ALC to move 1/4 scale doesn't affect SX100 readings, just lowers audio considerably. lowering carrier power below 30 watts & radio sounds like it's starting to 'sideband', the wobble old siltronix radios did when converted improperly. lowering carrier more just compounds the problem. the way my radio is set right now, appears fine on my tech's scope, i get excellent signal reports on AM, local and DX, no overmod, no 'sidebanding', that is with compressor on on AM, mic gain 1/2 way, and stock handheld. unamplified d104 sounds good too, had a 444 (or was it 1104) unamplified, sounded 'funny', went back to stock handheld & it's fine. and, as it is, my tech said go by 40 watt dead key & 90w swing, my dx1600 keys about 400 and swings just under 900, and only on certain words does it swing down towards 400. my neighbors don't like it though, that's why i don't use an amp at home. don't have any other amps to try it with right now. but i can talk AM dx easily on 26.835 and sometimes even on channel 6 the way the radio is, so i never messed with it. SSB swings 100 and if the local running the pride dx 300 isn't getting out, then i'm not either.
i just try not to watch the meter when i talk AM!! |
Racer X (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Monday, January 03, 2005 - 4:16 am: |
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I've never used an IC735, but it's a 100 watt PEP radio like most solid state HF rigs are. Having the carrier set to 40 watts on AM won't allow you to have full modulation because the radio won't produce much more than 100 watts PEP. To hit 100% modulation with a 40 watt carrier the radio would need to hit 160 watts PEP and it doesn't - at least not right out of the box.
I know that on my TS450 it's necessary to have the carrier at 25 watts or less to hit 100% modulation on my SM-220 station monitor. It's also a bit of a challenge to get the microphone gain just right to do that, and the ALC function of the meter makes it much easier to get into the ball park.
If a radio works well on AM with a 40 watt carrier, but has problems when it's reduced indicates that the ALC circuit has been modified or improperly adjusted.
For the record - my TS450 shows forward modulation in AM mode on it's internal meter, the cheap power/vswr meter I have in line, on my SM-220, and on the meters of the folks I chat with the very few times I use AM. It was NIB when I got it, and the only modification ever done to it was the general transmit modification which was done before I ever connected power to the radio. The only adjustment I ever made was to touch up the frequency using the instructions in the manual. |
