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Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 1
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 11, 2009 - 9:02 pm: | 
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I have run a pdl 2 for 13 years. Last winter the ice had it's way with it. So I put up a A99 backup. I have played with putting a pdl back up but rotor is bad and to much ice anymore.
So what about a ground plane. I had run a penatrator 500 before the pdl.
What about a pen.500,10k or a enforcer.
Will any of these get close to a pdl?
I have a station 45 miles from me that I could here with the pdl 1.5 s units but now I can just tell he is there. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1775
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 11:22 am: |
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A 5/8 wave groundplane like the Maco V-5/8 and others you mention will come really close.
The PDL2 didn't have quite the gain of the theoretical 2 element quad. |
Press_man
Member
Username: Press_man
Post Number: 77
Registered: 5-2008
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 4:20 pm: |
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Have to agree with 833. Had a PDL2, not great till I stacked a pair of them, then only 3db more. Tried a 3 element but best personal experience was with a 4 element quad in my area (the Maco 4 would likely do as well). Where I'm at in Florida I'm real close to a salt river and Atlantic Oceon. There was a study written about the signals coming from the Islands south of me and I'm in the same type area where the water helps with signal. So as I found out it's hard to beat an omni (here), we're talking 27mhz and that will change though location to location. There are some good quads out there. When you're talking vhf or uhf, then we have a different picture.
Wally/Pressman/KC4ZWM
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Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 2
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 9:41 pm: |
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Is there much diff. between say the maco 5/8 or maco 5000, k10,enforcer or the pen. 500 |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1777
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 12:32 am: |
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The ONLY difference between the Maco V-5/8 and the Maco V-5000 is the 5000 uses a Teflon insulator and the V-5/8 uses a nylon insulator.
The Maco antennas, Enforcer, 10K, and the P500 will do almost exactly the same. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 4710
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, November 12, 2009 - 11:55 pm: |
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don't waste your money on the enforcer, they don't make the penetrator 500 anymore so that may be a tough find, 10k-? the only 10k i can think of is the predator 10k mobile i use. stick with the maco v5/8. after 23 years of use, i will only replace my maco v5/8 with another maco v5/8! and that is only if this one ever dies!
1.5 S units @ 45 miles with the pdl??? something is wrong somewhere! i get that and better with my maco only 22' to the feedpoint! i can get S-3 signals 75 miles away on AM if it's quiet enough. on SSB, even farther. |
Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 3
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 7:28 am: |
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The 10k is made by jay or maybe it's k10. At the 1.5 at 45 miles the pdl was getting old and also the coax may have had a problem. So would you go with maco 5/8v or the 5000? I did find a pen. 500 but they want 250.00. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1779
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 11:00 am: |
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Unless you run more than 1500 watts, you do not need the Maco V-5000. The V-5/8 will work well for you. |
Radioreddz
Member
Username: Radioreddz
Post Number: 90
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 6:23 pm: |
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check out the Merlin antenna made by the same guy that makes the 55 built mobile antennas. the 10k that ur talking about is the 10K interceptor no doubt the best built omni directional priced now about $400.00 to ur door but well worth the price. i have seen for myself that it will out perform the maco V5000 gp. a friend of mine 48 air miles from me had the V5000 took it down replaced it with the 10K & at the same height with same coax he went from barely moving my needle to 2 to 3 s units. and he says he's gained the same on receive. also i know a guy running the Merlin i never checked what he gave me on the signal strength before and after but one thing i do know he is significantly louder and others also say they have picked up more signal from him. the Merlin is running around $270.00 give or take a few dollars. the Merlin is not quite as big as a 10K interceptor and it uses the droping radials. Maco does out perform the A-99's or Imaxes but there is better. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 4711
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, November 13, 2009 - 11:24 pm: |
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interceptor i10k......ok. my maco v5/8 cost me $59 23 years ago. it has......i've stated what 'it has' done on this forum 100 times before, so i won't state it again. for the 101st time, however, i will state, that it has ABSOLUTELY not been miraculously outperformed by any other $400 5/8 wave antenna in my vicinity enough times to justify a $400 purchase. i live just over a quarter mile from a large body of salt water, you may have heard of it before, it's called the atlantic ocean. and yes, i do live on an island, a long one at that. in fact, since yesterday, we have been experiencing the remnants of hurricane ida to the tune of 4" of rain and 50 mph winds. not even in the top 10 of what MY v5/8 has experienced in 23 years. MAYBE not even in the top 100. does that justify $400 worth of tank-like construction? absolutely NOT. THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING MEASURABLE IN A PERFORMANCE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN MY MACO V5/8 AND JAY'S I10K. while it MAY have a better survival record in harsher climates, i'll bet that excludes 97% of CBers and 99% of this forums members. a friend of mine SWEARS by his i10k.....except when he's at my house using my v5/8....... |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1781
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 12:50 am: |
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The Interceptor I-10K isn't going to outperform a Maco V-5/8 or Maco V-5000 by 2-3 S units.
I have had an I-10K on the test range. It has EXACTLY the same gain as a Penetrator P500. And, I happen to know that you cannot tell the difference between a P500 and a Maco on the air.
Tech 833, your CB 'Mythbuster' since 1998. |
Radioreddz
Member
Username: Radioreddz
Post Number: 91
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 12:42 pm: |
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belive me i did not belive the hype of the I10K but i saw it with my own eyes. i was big V5000 fan figured 5/8'S is a 5/8ths i really never belived the penatrator hype but proof is in the signal i thought that maybe the I10k was just a well construted antenna for those who needed that type extra heavy duty antenna but fo me in the mid atlantic states the V5000 stood up well to the conditions. but i have seen that it will be out performed by the I10K. not only did i se the difference in the meter on my Uniden washington but also in the 2950 with the tight bar meter first when he had the V5000 all i was getting was audio in him but when he put up the I10K now he gives me 1 full bar. but myself i gonna bypass the I10K and check out the Merlin that 55 makes seems like it's a half wave antenna that has seen better numbers then the 5/8ths I10K due to the design of the top hat dropping radials and feed point seems to be winning in the signal use effciancy dept. i know a lot of factors have to be figured in but i have had from my location an antron 99 out due an imax 2000, heck right now i'm using a slooper dipole that out talks & out hears the antron,v5000 or the imax. i guese it has a lot to due with location,soil composition around your ground and terrain as well as a million other factors more so the 1/2 wave or 5/8 wave i have a client that does a lot of communication testing for the military in terms of and they have found also there is no single rule it all depends on ur location. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 4714
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, November 14, 2009 - 9:43 pm: |
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you read the same hype-i mean-same website my friend read. his i10k did 3 and more S-units better on the receive then his maco v5/8 did. except when i'm at his house. funny, but he wonders how my v5/8 receives & transmits with the same relevant signals his i10k does. the day comes i need another antenna, it'll be a v5/8. unless steve gives me an i10k for 50 bucks. oh, and eddie wolf told me not to swap out my v5/8 for ANYTHING, not an i10k, not a coily enforcer, not a penetrator 500, not even eddies own antenna, the wolf point 64(which he no longer sells). he said i'd NEVER EVER IN A MILLION YEARS NOTICE THE DIFFERENCE, save my money & go out to dinner with it instead. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1785
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 1:10 pm: |
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In another thread here called "Penetrator, Imax 2000, and I-10K comparison"
(http://www.copperelectronics.com/cgi-bin/discus4/board-auth.cgi?file=/34/111791.html&lm=1258130039 ), you can see the actual radiation patterns from the I-10K, Penetrator P500, and Imax 2000 w/GPK next to each other. The facts don't lie. But people who just dropped $400 on an antenna tend to feel emotionally forced to justify their purchase.
I am the first to eagerly point out that Jay's antenna is built like a tank. I love the way it is built and the materials he uses. However, I am also quick to point out that the I-10K will NOT outperform similar 5/8 antennas.
I would like to remind you that Jay in the Mojave has NEVER put his antenna on a professional antenna test range, so he does not know for sure what it does. He is also understandably partial to his antenna.
On the other hand- I am impartial, and HAVE had his antenna on a professional test range, so I know EXACTLY what it does. I have reported my results to you without partiality. Who do you believe?
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Radioreddz
Member
Username: Radioreddz
Post Number: 92
Registered: 9-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 1:52 pm: |
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yup yup signal patterns are signal patterns hype is hype and Sunits on a meter are what they are. never do i belive anything i read basicly from the manufactors and much less from what i read on a lot of the forums but i can belive what i saw on MY "S" meter and in this situation the 10K clearly out performs the V5000. like said before i have had a antron 99 out perform a imax 2000 on the same roof 30' a part. i guese it all goes back to conditions, conditions and location location. hey i was a V5000 fan until i saw what the new Merlin by 55 will do. it clearly out talks the V5000 after test i saw this saturday again with my own "S" meter and a station 32 miles away. humm 1/2 wave antenna out talking a 5/8ths intresting and i would'nt own a 55 mobile antenna so no sale hype for me guese i gotta try them all to see which works in my LOCATION maybe a 1/2 wave or maybe a 5/8ths. i do know my trusty V5000 has done well but technology maybe has passed it by. |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 5230
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 2:56 pm: |
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It's a beefed up skylab nothing else .....
My cut down to 52mhz skylab worked well but is no 5/8 wave ..... |
Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 4
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 8:22 pm: |
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Where do you go to look at the merlins? |
Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 5
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 12:29 am: |
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Thanks for the link. Who made the penetrator? I bought mine used. What was the power rating. When I went from it to the pdl. I did not see much diff. But that is hard to say about s-units because I was running a 2950. I saw a big diff. when I went from 40 feet to 54 feet. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 4722
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, November 15, 2009 - 11:17 pm: |
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The Merlin is a balanced antenna with direct feeding of the elements. RF Wave Shaping is acheived by redirecting RF that would normally leave the antenna in the direction of the sky and ground. All radiated power is in phase, thereby preventing distortion of the sine wave leaving the antenna. The feed point is 75 inches from the top of the antenna, allowing you to install the antenna in restricted areas with the feed point at the highest possible point. The gain of the Merlin in relative terms,is greater than any other antenna of the Merlin's same physical length. It is also greater than most conventional ground planes on the market today. The gain is not being expressed in db because other antenna manufacturers gain figures, expressed in db have made the figure deceptive. Power handling capability is limited by the SO239 connector, when used. For High Power operation, the antenna has been designed for easy removal of the SO239 bracket, and direct connect of large coax, with eyelets or brackets. RG218 or 1 5/8 hardline will fit on the hub easily-hmmmmmmm......it uses a LOADING COIL directly UNDERNEATH a capacitance hat??? i...ummmm...well...yeah...and....ummmm....well....you....i....he.....i'd STILL bet my maco v5/8 outperforms it 75% of the time or better, and given the price difference, that makes up the other 25%.
my mobile with a predator 10k can outhear & out talk a friends A99 & later imax 2000 at 60'-in his driveway. that is radio/watts/technique as much as antenna. my friends i10k-that my v5/8 can regularly equal or better in performance-DOES IN FACT out talk my ar3500 with 150 watts when he keys up his modded ameritron al800 doing nearly 2.5kw, and depending on what amp he uses, he CAN out talk me when he gets back into the 600 watt range AND based on which radio he uses, give the impression of 'stock', as opposed to mucho output......basically stated....maybe occasionally, but still ain't buyin' it. |
Sitm
Intermediate Member
Username: Sitm
Post Number: 326
Registered: 1-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 10:38 am: |
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I had thought that Hy Gain made the P500 Penetrator, anyone have confirmation of that?
***Tech 833 note: Yes, Hy-Gain made the Penetrator. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1788
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 11:44 am: |
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I invite the maker of the 55 Merlin to send one to me for some actual field testing.
Based on reality, the Merlin cannot possibly outperform a gain antenna for several reasons.
First of all, the Merlin is not a center-fed dipole antenna. In order to do that, the radials would have to be much closer together, near the mounting pole, and they would have to be bonded at both ends. It is a 1/4 wave (electrical) over ground planes.
Second, the vertical radiator is not full-length. It is top loaded both by a coil, and top hat. There is no way it can even have as much gain as a full-length 1/4 wave radiator, like the Startduster.
Third, you need to consider the capture area. Receive is just as important as transmit. This IS two-way radio, afterall.
I do concede that there may be some advantages to the design by lowering the takeoff angle, but the same thing can be accomplished by mounting a similar antenna higher above ground. There is no way to know for sure what difference in takeoff angle the Merlin design can achieve without spinning one on the test range, which has NOT been done yet. Not even the antenna's manufacturer who makes bloated claims has actually had one on a range, so those claims cannot be backed up with facts, only wishes.
I also concede that the design may handle more power (watts) than some other base antennas. However, the legal limit on the 10m band is 1500 watts PEP. If you run more than that, I don't feel sorry for you burning up your antenna.
I am not saying it isn't possible to somehow magically defy the laws of physics and somehow magically create an RF radiator that works in ways we cannot define. I have been to Disneyland, I have an open mind. Until I have one on the test range myself, I will stand by the logical statements above.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 6
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 5:01 pm: |
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Is there a diff. in the maco 5/8 and the workman 5/8. They look the same. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 4724
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 7:58 pm: |
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probably not....maybe construction or quality-wise, but if they're the same size-i'll bet the workman is an EXACT COPY of the maco-there probably ain't no difference. |
Joey_migs
Member
Username: Joey_migs
Post Number: 56
Registered: 9-2009
| | Posted on Monday, November 16, 2009 - 9:23 pm: |
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You can home brew a u omnidirectional 1/4 vertical (no gain with respect to a isotropic ant. But for about 30 bucks, excluding feedline and mast, you have a system that reach out an touch many people. Depending on the Freq of resonance, you will need one 3/8 aluminum tube, perhaps two in a telescopic fashion. use the thickest aluminum stock tubing as possible (for decent band width), Droop the (4) 1/4 wavelength lamda + 5% at a 45 degree slope and feed point is perfectly matched to 50 ohm coax. RG-58. RG 8U or RG-213 with 1;1.1~2 VSWR (worst case). Put it up high a bit and you won;t be disappointed
Good luck, boys.
Joe |
Danusee
Member
Username: Danusee
Post Number: 78
Registered: 10-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 18, 2009 - 7:43 pm: |
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I have a Imax @ 60' to the top. That with 18' Ground radials that I made with electric fence wire to nylon rope. I use the Atelicon CA-400 coax. I have about a 60 - 70 mile radius that I can talk depending on the direction. Of course at that far it requires the distant station to have a antenna up at least as high as mine. I chose to go the Imax due to how easy it goes together. I wouldn't take it down for a freebie. I have put several antennas up. Looking back, I wished I knew then what I know now. |
Scrapiron63
Advanced Member
Username: Scrapiron63
Post Number: 861
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Thursday, November 19, 2009 - 12:26 pm: |
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After about 40 years of having antennas without many problems, I've lost two in about one year.
In Feb. 2008 we were hit with an F4 tornado, I lost 70 feet of tower, beam, my shop, two barns, about 60% of the house and lots of other stuff. But we were lucky and didn't get hurt. My closest neighbor was killed, so it could have been a lot worst.
I put up 40 feet of tower last fall with an old 5/8 wave metal GP I've had for many years. Well,in January of this year we had a terrible ice storm and the groundplane broke down.
I went back up with an I-max 2000 with 9 foot radials. It works great on this mountain top where I live. We had another ice storm after I got it up, the old Imax bent about double but didn't break.
After I lost the first GP, I decided to make it easier to raise and lower the tower.
There was just enough room between the tower base and the foundation of the new shop to install a pull pipe. It's 4" ID thick wall pipe, about 20 feet out of the concrete. That little 3000 pound winch handles the short tower real easy.
Here's some links to some pics I put on photobucket for better viewing if anyone is interested.
The first two are how it looks now, and the others was the installation. That meadow lark was enjoying his early morning view I guess.
Scrapiron, CEF 108, North Arkansas
Moderator Note!
To share your great pictures with other Copper Forum Member's, Please submit ALL of Your pictures to the:
Members Pictures
area of the Copper Forum under YOUR Copper Forum USER NAME ie: Scrapiron63
Thank You. |
Birddog01
New member
Username: Birddog01
Post Number: 8
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 24, 2009 - 8:01 am: |
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I have enjoyed everyones input. This is going to be my test winter. I have found a penetrator 500.
Will put it up november 26. I will post results as we go along. |
Airplane1
Senior Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 1372
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, November 25, 2009 - 12:50 pm: |
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Well I got to jump in and give my 2. I have a Maco 5/8 from 2003 to present. I love it, never a problem and had ice, high winds and it is still in the air. |
Walterb
Junior Member
Username: Walterb
Post Number: 36
Registered: 12-2007
| | Posted on Monday, November 28, 2011 - 1:03 pm: |
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Have tested an my QTH, MACO, I-10K , A99, IMAX2000 and a HGP-500 on 11 meters Best receive hand down HGP-500 to my ear
that means best signal to noise and hearing weak signals. next was I-10K Best modulation of all antennas tested good signal to noise, next was A99 strongest signal reports transmitting an receiving at 25 miles. noisy receive but hears all the signals if you use the RF gain control. MACO quite antenna transmit same as !MAX on 11 meters receives about the same as MACO. Seem like everybody wants there antenna to do some what different for there application. Mine is good signal to noise
with low or no background noise. The A99 and the I-MAX 2000
can be used on some other bands with out an antenna tuner, where the I-10k the HGP-500 an the MACO antenna would have to be adjusted for the band in use............Oldtimer |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 2068
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, November 29, 2011 - 10:48 am: |
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Very interesting. How does your I-10K antenna affect your modulation? I'm curious.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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