| Author |
Message |
    
Crackerjack
Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 86
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 8:18 pm: | 
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I keep seeing that 4 element beab mounted vertical.
1. How is that possible and the mast does not interfere with the pattern?
2. Is anyone using one?
If it is really effective, I might try it, but I can't see going horitzontal -who would I talk to?
Be gentle, please! |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3055
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 8:27 pm: |
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Crackerjack,
On our Beams I might as well not even have the Verticle as we always use the Flat / Horizontal side for Everything.
Who do we talk to using the Flat Side? EVERYONE.  |
Crackerjack
Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 88
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 8:53 pm: |
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Lon:
So, there is no degredation of communications talking to something like a mobile with a whip?
What about local communications, how wil that be effected?
I understand that the optimum situation would be two antennas with a switch, but that may be physically impossible for some people.
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Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3060
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 9:35 pm: |
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None at all.
Local Communications are EXCELLENT as well as to any Mobiles out there.
I have an Anttron 305 Verticle as well as the Beams and the Flat side works Excellent for us for everything.
And on the CEF Nets I have found the Flat side to work better than the Anttron or the Vert side of the Beams to talk with the members when the are on bases or mobile.
Lon |
Crackerjack
Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 90
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, July 23, 2004 - 9:43 pm: |
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So, actually -I could live with a Hortx 3 element flat beam.
I understand E&H fields, I always thought there was a ploarity problrem. I also know that there is almost an appearany 20X increase in signal oiff a beam (I didn't say db).
I think that that is my next change. |
Highlander
Advanced Member
Username: Highlander
Post Number: 560
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 7:57 am: |
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Crackerjack-- You will see a huge difference in signal to mobiles using vertical versus horizontal. If you use horizontal to try to talk to vertically polarized mobiles, you will not get much range. This would be for local. Skip makes little difference, but locally, polarization matters, and matters alot!
I can't explain why Tech808 doesn't see a reduction in signal when talking to mobiles with a horizontal beam, but he never seems to have problems no matter what he does, so go figure.
But if you go out and put up a flat beam and try to talk to locals who are vertical, you WILL have problems. |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3067
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 8:30 am: |
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Highlander,
I am not sure either, but with about 15 CEF Members located within our area from day one I have always been able to get a better signal and reach them farther on the Flat side to thier bases or when they are mobile.
With Beerman CEF #322 he has a daily run back and forth from Bloomington to Pontiac 4 or 5 times a day and when the 305 has a S-3 or S-4 on him I can swith to the flat side of the beams and get an S-8 or S-9 and have him a good 15 to 20 miles further.
HEY JIM CM3885 QUESTION FOR YOU?
Does your SE White Lightning HORZ side work better for you than the VERT?
Unless some how we mixed the Coax Up and mis-marked it when we ran it down the tower & thru the PVC pipe into and under the house to the radio room.
Lon
Tech808 |
Crackerjack
Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 94
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:40 am: |
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808: It would be nice to be able to mount a 102" above the beam to a switch. I wonder what the effect would be? |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 514
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:45 am: |
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I also use my beam on the flat side, and have no problems at all talking to anyone. I use the gp antenna to hear where someone is, then turn the beam that way.
Rich |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3071
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:49 am: |
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Crackerjack,
That is where Tech833 suggested that I put my Anttron 305 but I happened to have a Standoff for my tower so I mounted it below the Beams.
I use the MFJ 1700-B Switch which allows me to have 6 antennas & 6 radios hooked up at any one time and just flip the switch to which setup / combination I want to use at the time.
Then in SEPT when we make another trip to COPPER I will bring back an IMAX 2000 to add to a 40' Push up pole about 20 Feet away from the Tower and Run yet another coax into the house. hehehe
Lon
Tech808 |
Ca346
Advanced Member
Username: Ca346
Post Number: 888
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:51 am: |
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I would have to add my concurrance to the Horiz is better than vertical discussion. My White Lighting stays on Horizontal also. One more reason tho. It's much quieter. I lose alot of power line noise when I switch to horizontal. Talk to mobiles all the time on my horiz. I would think it would be the opposite? When talking to locals here (30 mile) I use a ground mounted 32 foot GAP Challenger. |
Crackerjack
Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 97
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:11 am: |
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I am thinking that I may place another mast on the back of the house and run both antennas.The only problem I see is the addition of 36 additional feet of RG8 to the new tower, or 72' total.
Since the beam is intended for distance, I was figuring that the vertical should go on the 72' run of cable and beam on the 36 foot run.
This sure is a lot of fun. |
Dindin
Intermediate Member
Username: Dindin
Post Number: 284
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:53 pm: |
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Ca346&Lon,
I find that hard to believe because when I ran a MR-4 I found just the oppisit to be true.especially on the powerline noise Ca346,after all powerlines are strung horizontal. |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3092
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 8:11 am: |
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Dindin,
If I just used my Anttron 305 or the Vert Sdie of my antennas I would make about 2/3 less contacts.
If I happen to hear someone on the 305 then I turn the Flat side to them and have them good.
If Homeboy has a S-4 signal on someone with his Maco M-103 Vert Beams I can turn my flat side to them and get them S-9 Plus and the same with talking.
Not sure why it works but with out the Flat side I would not make any contacts on the CEF Nets.
If I have a S-3 or 4 on Pig040 out in NM on the Vert Side I can switch to Flat and have the meter pegged with him.
Lon |
Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 112
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 10:09 am: |
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Lon:
WHat is the most economical antenna that has both Vert/Hortz polarities? |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3093
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:18 am: |
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Ctackerjack,
The MACO Y Quad.
http://www.copperelectronics.com/cgi-bin/checkitout/checkitout.cgi?catalogSTORE:CKIE:prodM00-05120+
$146.99
Good performing antenna.
Lon
Tech808 |
Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 113
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 11:32 am: |
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Lon:
You run two coax to the antenna, correct?
John |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3096
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:22 pm: |
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Crackerjack,
Yes correct, I run Two separate lengths of RG 213, 1 to the VERT side and 1 to the HORZ side.
You will also need an antenna switch with the beams to make things easy to switch from VERT to HORZ when needed.
Some antenna switches let you run just VERT or Just HORZ or VERT & HORZ TOGETHER.
Like the Dosy SW-4 that Copper Carries.
D60-07020 DOSY SW-4 4 Position Switch Box
$ 27.99
Features
4 Position Coaxial Switch Box
Low Insertion Loss
Handles up to 1000 Watts
DOSY Professional Architecture
Printed Circuit Board
Automatic SWR Compensation
Vertical/Horizontal/Auxiliary/Horizontal + Vertical Positions
CLICK on the Link below to view it.
http://www.copperelectronics.com/cgi-bin/checkitout/checkitout.cgi?catalogSTORE:CKIE:prodD60-07020+
Lon
Tech808 |
Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 114
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:22 pm: |
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Lon: That;s the ticket. How "big" is that antenna? |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3097
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
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Crackerjack,
CLICK on the Link Below for all of the Specs on the Maco Line of Antennas.
http://www.majestic-comm.com/products/antennas/index.htm
Hope this helps.
Lon
Tech808
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Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 115
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:30 pm: |
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Lon: On that switch, I am guessing that the SWR compensation ingages ONLY in the combined position #4? |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3098
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:36 pm: |
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Crackerjack,
I would imagine that it will work on all settings as you can use the AUX for a Omni Antenna also.
It is designed for use with a set of beams as well as an Omni antenna and will allow you to switch to which ever one you choose to use at the time.
As lot of people will use the OMNI to hear someone then switch to the beams to get them stronger. |
Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 119
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:49 pm: |
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That is a nice package too, I like it -there is one in my immediate future, I will get that, then build the rest as I get the funds.
I will do the switch -the mast/cable -then rotor, then choose an antenna.
Now, why rg-213? |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3100
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 6:17 pm: |
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RG-8 rated for 2000 Watts RG-213 rated for 5000 watts.
A few cents more a foot but better Quality and Dependable.
I do not plan on changing coax for many many years to come.
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Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 120
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 6:40 pm: |
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Is it the sam diameter as RG-8? O am assuming.
NOTE!
Yes it is the same. |
Hollowpoint445
Intermediate Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 170
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Monday, July 26, 2004 - 12:18 pm: |
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Some general comments on Quads, beams in general, and polarity.
Quad beams exhibit some vertical and horizontal polarization regardless of the feed point because the elements are both vertical and horizontal. Where it is fed is going to be the main polarization, but it'll also show some of the opposite polarization as well.
There is an isolation loss between horizontal and vertical polarization, but the gain and rejection of the beam still allows you to communicate effectively. With a quad there is less isolation because of it's nature.
Quads also interact less with the ground than other beams when they are within 1/2 wavelength of the the ground. Loops in general exhibit this nature when vertical, and becuase a quad is a loop with parasitic elements it is no different.
Horizontal polarization has been traditional with beams because most EMI is vertically polarized. All things being equal, you can generally hear better horizontal to horizontal than you could vertical to vertical because of the lower noise floor with horizontal polarization.
When communicating with skip the polarization will change when the signal is bounced off of the atmosphere, so it's useful to try both polarizations - if you can - to see where you get the strongest reception. |
Applejack
Intermediate Member
Username: Applejack
Post Number: 239
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Friday, December 10, 2004 - 10:30 pm: |
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well here i am 5 months later on the topic, and three months after having turned my 4 element maco from disapointing flatside to a much better vertical. for locals it is MUCH better than flat. as far as skip, well i havent had that good of luck on the beam in either polarization. the antron does better for me for that.....aj |
Gonzo
Intermediate Member
Username: Gonzo
Post Number: 136
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 6:34 pm: |
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I agree 100% Hollowpoint. Excellent points.
However the (Y-quad) being suggested is not a true quad, this is a quagi, more like a crossed yagi than a true quad, this is nothing like a Cubex or Signal Engineering beam also being discussed. There would be little cross polarization with this beam, and not alot of gain either, since this is a only 2 element beam. |
Kid_vicious
Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 75
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, December 13, 2004 - 10:19 pm: |
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what about circular polarization? i seem to remember an article by lou franklin on how to feed a quad with different lengths of coax so the antenna is sort of "cophased" and the signal is polarized at all points of a circle. anyone heard of this or tried it?
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Airplane1
Intermediate Member
Username: Airplane1
Post Number: 236
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 14, 2004 - 9:21 am: |
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Why not just run the Dosy antenna switch on horizon-vertical position all the time?
Then you get best of both worlds all the time.
Is`nt that logical?
Roger |
296 (Unregistered Guest)
Unregistered guest
| | Posted on Saturday, February 12, 2005 - 5:00 pm: |
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i need scamatic to a shooting star |
