| Author |
Message |
    
Capt_hook
Member
Username: Capt_hook
Post Number: 63
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 4:37 pm: | 
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ok if i were to take a 4 element vertical beam and turn it flat side (horizontal ) will it work? if so for better or worst ? |
Ca346
Advanced Member
Username: Ca346
Post Number: 890
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 7:22 pm: |
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Yup. Better if high enough. What height? |
Crackerjack
Intermediate Member
Username: Crackerjack
Post Number: 105
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 8:52 pm: |
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Is 28 feet on flat country good enough? |
Capt_hook
Member
Username: Capt_hook
Post Number: 66
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 9:21 pm: |
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how about 48' east coast |
Ca346
Advanced Member
Username: Ca346
Post Number: 891
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:13 pm: |
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You will hear several answers to the height issue. 28 feet is okay for a ground plane antenna, but I don't think it's high enough for a beam. You will be taking the chance of increased TVI. Interference with your neighbors unless it's at least 36 feet.
48 feet is great! |
Dindin
Intermediate Member
Username: Dindin
Post Number: 283
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, July 24, 2004 - 10:48 pm: |
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Ca346,it also depends on what kind of distance your talking.during multihop skip your polarity can change several times.so which ever polarity your recieving another station louder,chances are he will hear you louder also.even if you both are on different polarities. |
Hollowpoint445
Intermediate Member
Username: Hollowpoint445
Post Number: 167
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 2:32 am: |
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The height above the ground greatly changes the pattern and the angle of radiation for a horizontal antenna. The higher the antenna the more the pattern will be directional and the lower the angle of radiation.
You should be at least 1/4 wavelength above the ground for the antenna to have a decent pattern and a reasonable radiation angle. At 1/2 wavelength the pattern is very good and the takeoff angle is low. |
Capt_hook
Member
Username: Capt_hook
Post Number: 67
Registered: 6-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 7:00 am: |
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where will 48' put me? is that high enough? |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 3089
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, July 25, 2004 - 7:06 am: |
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Capt hook,
YES,  |
Applejack
Intermediate Member
Username: Applejack
Post Number: 200
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 10:16 am: |
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my 104c is at 2' above 4 sections of tower with a99 inches above it. beam must be about38' above ground and im ready to turn it vertical because of poor performance on flatside. cant get skip or local. swr is just fine. will i ABSOLUTELY have to raise the beam so the elements dont line up with the tower, or can i leave boom height at 2' abve tower and just rotate it vertical. and will the a99 now have to come down???....aj |
Highlander
Advanced Member
Username: Highlander
Post Number: 584
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 12:16 pm: |
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You are probably not getting much DX on it because there isn't that much for it to hear right now. Local won't be there either, unless they are also using horizontal polarity. (I know some forum members seem to do fine local with flat beams, but that is unusual and they probably ought to check their beams for proper construction/installation).
As far as the tower and the a99 with your beam turned vertical, I would think that the a99 would bother it more than the tower would, but I would suggest trying to get it clear of the tower and mount your A99 somewhere else. |
Applejack
Intermediate Member
Username: Applejack
Post Number: 201
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, August 15, 2004 - 10:28 pm: |
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boy as i just now read the last line of my post, i thought jeeze was that a dumb question.im so glad its there for evryone to see....aj |
Cm3885
Advanced Member
Username: Cm3885
Post Number: 557
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 1:53 am: |
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I run a moonraker 4 at the folkses up on top of a 40' tower. it works great on horizontal!
IMHO one of the better DX beams out there. Sadly no longer made....
But i keep a good supply of parts hubs and elements in case something fails!!!!
here at my apartment i run a I maxx 2000 only up about 18' off the ground and it works ok..
At 18' i give most guys around me a 6 to a 7 at 10 to 15 miles.. Not bad! I just need to go higher to get away from the buildings.. |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 555
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 9:56 am: |
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Applejack,
Skip season is rapidly approaching, your setup sounds good, leave it alone til we hit the season, then see how you feel about it. There has not been much skip around to catch lately. Some days I get zip on the gp, or the beam, and that is just the way the radio waves flow!! During the season I usually hit at least 13 or 14 stations every sunday, nothing last week, only 6 this week, so bide your time!
Rich |
Dx431
Advanced Member
Username: Dx431
Post Number: 901
Registered: 2-2002
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 11:58 am: |
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Applejack, Rich is right. Wait till this fall/winter and then see what ya think. I have my setup the same way, 3 element beam flat with the 99 mounted above it and I feel it's by far the best setup I've had.! |
Dindin
Intermediate Member
Username: Dindin
Post Number: 318
Registered: 2-2004
| | Posted on Monday, August 16, 2004 - 6:25 pm: |
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Or keep your eye out for an az-el rotator like one Yeaseu makes(I have seen a couple sell under $200 recently)then you could rotate to which ever polarity works best for the conditions! |
Rldrake
Intermediate Member
Username: Rldrake
Post Number: 158
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 12:21 am: |
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What you call a "beam" is a yagi antenna and yes, it will perform better if you turn it to horizontal polarity. The yagi design was never intended to be mounted vertically as is the common practice in the "CB" world.
Mounted vertically, the mast and feedline running parallel to the elements greatly distort the gain/pattern characteristics of the antenna.
The exception to this are the short boom, end mounted yagis used at VHF, and higher, frequencies for short range FM communications.
Now for working local traffic...the signals are going to be down in strength a great deal unless the other stations are also running horizontal polarity. CB radio got into, from the beginning in 1958, using vertical polarization because the purpose of the Citizens Band Radio Service was to provide low cost fixed station to mobile communications...Such as for a business to send dispatch to a worker out on the road or field. Shortened, loaded verticals were the only practical antenna type to install on such mobiles...and unfortunately just became the conventional practice on the "CB" band no matter what the application.
Another advantage of horizontal polarization is that most man made noise is vertically polarized, so using horizontal polarization usually greatly improves the noise floor.
As for "hearing skip"...
There is no such thing as SKIP.
This is a "cb" terminology that came from SKIP ZONE. The skip zone is the area between stations that are communicating via sky wave...in other words signals being reflected by the ionosphere. In this skip zone area the signals are NOT heard by a station in between them.
When you do not hear what CBers call skip, it is because there is not propagation to bring a sky wave signal to you. The band just isn't open.
As the others stated, ideally a horizontal antenna wants to be a wavelength or higher in the air...about 33 feet for 27mhz "CB".
But up at a 1/4 wavelength it will work quite well...even with the associated ground losses.
Radio operators have gotten along just fine using all sorts of horizontally polarized antennas at 1/4 wavelength high and much, much lower for over a hundred years. |
Marconi
Advanced Member
Username: Marconi
Post Number: 660
Registered: 11-2001
| | Posted on Monday, May 29, 2006 - 1:28 pm: |
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Hook, you are getting a lot of good info here. RL, Highlander, 445, 346, 431, 040, and DinDin, are all giving good advice.
DinDin is right about the Az/El rotor maybe being useful for your setup, but I give a caution. This rotor will not accomadate a boom even the small size of the Moonraker and for sure larger.
You just have to be patient until conditions get a bit better and then hopefully if your beam is right it should start to respond better. Being close to the tower as you note should not be the cause of such a problem as you describe. Even the A99 above should not be a problem.
I agree with those that say 20' plus is best and the higher the better for a horizontal and that lower will likely induce TVI into your operations.
Good luck, |
26_op_141
Member
Username: 26_op_141
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:26 am: |
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Our 2 x 4 Elements Sigma Antenne are mounted on a 24' boom and work just great at about 36' above the ground.
PS. Get a good rotator. Yeasu is so so, a Create or Prosistel rotor use worm drive and not plantary gears.They are a lot better built and cost aout the same as the yeasu stuff.
73
Tim
26 OP 141
Orient Pirate Radio Group
Moderator Note!
Please crop and submit your picture's to the Members Pictures area of the Copper Forum. |
26_op_141
Member
Username: 26_op_141
Post Number: 82
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, June 08, 2006 - 10:30 am: |
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PS. Should of also added when the cycle gets better I will be adding another 2 more 4 element Sigma Antenna yagis to have four stacked in total, but placing them flat side. If you really want to work DX. Flatside is the way to go.
73
Tim
26 OP 141 |
Mrclean
Junior Member
Username: Mrclean
Post Number: 41
Registered: 12-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, July 02, 2006 - 11:42 am: |
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Flatside has much better side rejection also. Vertical has good front to back rejection but almost none on side rejection. So it lets you hear more from the sides which is not good for a beam |
Applejack
Intermediate Member
Username: Applejack
Post Number: 321
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 2:03 pm: |
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back again 4 years later. above setup has changed to 4 el. vertical on 6 sections tower. but now i have a 3 el. maco on 10'of mast pipe above 4 sections of tower, w/a99 right on top. still not hearing skip but i'll leave it this way for awhile. do talk about 12 miles to a guy w/moonraker, and its nice and quiet.i may be incorrect but i feel the beam helps the antron for its ground plane ability....aj cef 174 in central ohio |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 2230
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Tuesday, December 02, 2008 - 3:15 pm: |
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Someday the Dx will come alive. Been quiet here too. Sounds like you have a nice set-up!
CEF 375
Tyrone, Pa 16686 |
Phreddiet
Junior Member
Username: Phreddiet
Post Number: 14
Registered: 3-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 11, 2009 - 7:01 pm: |
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Last summer I setup my Hy-gain Long John for 11m. It's stock except for an after-market balun. It sits atop a tower about 40 feet high and the A99 sites above it. I run Heliax 7/8 inch coax using 1/2/ inch flexible at the tower. This setup is by far the best performer I've had; clearly out performs by old three element. |
