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26_op_141
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Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 38
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 10:14 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Guys,

Anyone tried this RF Speech Processor?

Tim
26 OP 141
Orient Pirate Radio Group
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 836
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, October 17, 2005 - 9:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I've used the RF-440. I don't think I've ever seen an RF-550 though. It must be very similar because the instruction manual for my RF-440 also has the RF-550 mentioned in it.

I LOVE RF speech processors. They're better than amplifiers. Watch using high amounts of clipping though. It greatly increases the duty cycle of the transmitter which causes both more average output power and more heat. If your radio is peaked out you can easily fry the finals.
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26_op_141
Junior Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 40
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 8:00 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi Hollowpoint,

Im waiting for it to arrive from France. I bought it on a auction site for a steal. I think the RF550 is the next one up on the RF440? Im going to use it for SSB only on my Kenwood TS-50. I hoping for some good results. I'll keep an eye on that clipping level.

Any idea when these models were made? Looks 1980's ?

73

Tim
26 OP 141
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 838
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 18, 2005 - 3:49 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

I'm curious - how much did you pay for it? Where did you find it? I've got a collection of RF speech processors and I'd like to find some different models.

I think the RF-440 and RF-550 were made in the late 70s through the early-mid 80s. They use different designs, but functionally they're similar. I've got several other RF speech processors of varying design and control options, but they all work basically the same way and are nearly interchangeable.

I would guess the RF-550 was more expensive because of the design. I don't think I've never seen one for sale online. The RF-440 seems to have been more popular either because it was less expensive or made longer. They look exactly the same, have the same controls, and operate the same way.

I have another model Daiwa RF speech processor that's small and meant to be used in a mobile environment. It's design is similar to the RF-440.

Because it's microphone based you can use it in any mode. It'll help to greatly increase your average modulation level on AM too. That way you can keep your radio stock, reliable and legal yet still be very loud.

BTW - If you need a manual let me know. I converted mine to PDF a while ago.
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26_op_141
Junior Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 41
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 8:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hollow Point,

Its arrived today. Conditon is good but the front input conector has been changed to a 8 pin HAM type.The guy had it wired for a Yeasu FT707 and a FT One.

I want to wire it for my kenwood TS-50.

I can work out the input from Yaesu to Kenwood thats no problem.

However can you tell me the wiring form the RF550 output lead to the Kenwoods input.

The lead at the back has 4 colors

Red
Black
Purple
Shield

I need to know which pins they goto on the TS-50

Thanks in advance

Tim
26 OP 141
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 844
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 20, 2005 - 4:39 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

This is how it's supposed to be wired:

1-Audio
2-PTT
3-GND(PTT)
4-GND(Audio)

Color isn't mentioned in the manual - I don't think I've ever seen an amateur manual mention wire colors. If there's a connector in place I wouldn't assume that it's wired that way because the previous owner changed out the front connector. You'll probably want to wire it up for Kenwood as you're going to use it with your Kenwood.

8 pin Kenwood:

1 - Mic Audio
2 - STBY (PTT)
3 - Down
4 - Up
5 - +8V
6 - NC
7 - GND (Mic)
8 - GND (STBY)

Obviously whatever color is shielded is the audio lead, and the shield is the audio ground. The other two are interchangeable depending on how the front connector is wired because the processor only deals with the audio wire and shield.
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26_op_141
Junior Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 44
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 6:50 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

445,

Thanks for the details above. Ive sorted the wiring now. However it was a nightmare. The internal wires had been changed to 6 core cable not 4 and the conectors of the unit had all been changed to yeasu so nothing was orginal.

Anyway all up and running and the unit is working 100%. It adds between 1 and 2 "S" points on SSB to stations further away without too much processing degredation to the original audio. Thats like the effect of adding a 100 watt linear!!. Wish i found one years ago.

What was the other unit you had for the mobile?

There is a make called KENPRO which still makes RF speech processors in Japan. They are expensive but seem similar to the unit I have with the internal crystal filter.

By the way Im not amatuer. Just because I own a TS-50 doesnt make me one ;-)

73
Tim
26 OP 141
Orient Pirate Radio Group
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 854
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Monday, October 24, 2005 - 8:42 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Great! I'm glad it's up and running and you like how it works. I LOVE speech processors because they increase average power output without having to increase the actual PEP with an amplifier.

Make sure the TS-50 stays cool with the increased duty cycle. Heat kills solid state devices, and I've read that's an issue with the TS-50 and TS-60. I don't know if it's fan can be switched on all of the time but that's a good idea, and I've read that some folks place a fan over the exhaust vent to draw even more air over the fins when using a speech processor.

I know it's a pain to reverse customized wiring like that, but it's something I've thought about doing to my speech processors so they have a standard interface. Currently some of mine are 4 pin, and some are 1/4" phono plug - but they're all stock to the best of my knowledge. If I can ever find a deal on 8 pin plugs and jacks I will probably wire them and all of my microphones to Kenwood 8 pin jacks/plugs and make up some kind of conversion box/cable set up for different radios. Kenwood 8 pin wiring is generic enough that it can be adapted to pretty much any radio minus the odd Icom configuration.

The mobile processor I have is about 3" square by 3/4" thick so it's easy to use mobile. I just use velcro to stick it to my radios.

I didn't know that Kenpro was still in production. I have a KP-12 and it's got a HUGE 10.7 MHz crystal lattice filter in it. The filter alone is worth twice what I paid for the unit.

It's cool that you're not an amatuer, but you are using amateur equipment. I just made the comment about the wire colors because CBers seem to depend on them to wire microphones rather than learning how to confirm each wire's function with a VOM.
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26_op_141
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Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 45
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 6:04 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hi 445,

Yes Kenpro are still up and running and will export direct from Japan to your door. I emailed them to enquire about there top of the range Kenpro KP121 with X tal filter. It worked out with shipping £160 !! They are expensive but I guess with the increase its puts on a signal compared to an amp then its not too bad. I paid about £25 plus shipping from France for mine but that was second hand.My RF550 also has the 10.7MHz X tal too.

The RF550 is quite a large unit really for the car although it can be run on DC as well as AC. I might try looking for a KP12 like you own for a neater install in our smaller British compact cars.

No worries about the colors, HAM or CBer were all aiming for the same thing, ie good audio on a big signal !


73

Tim

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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 856
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, October 25, 2005 - 9:20 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

That's an outstanding deal on the RF-550. It's about what I've paid for an RF-440.

I looked at Kenpro's site and boy are they expensive. They're smaller than the RF-550, but still fairly large for mobile use. The KP-12 is about the same size or larger than the current Kenpro models, so using one of them is probably not going to be practical either.

I had forgotten you were in the UK until you referenced prices in GBP. Have you ever used a Datong processor or one of the VOGAD processors that use the Plessey IC? There was a popular speech processor kit available from a UK radio shop based on a plessey IC, but when I tried to order one several years ago they weren't available anymore because the IC was no longer in production.
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26_op_141
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Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 47
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 10:02 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Nope. Never tried the VOGAD or DATONG although I was looking for those as well when i was looking for the Daiwa.Tell me more..

The datong models are british built and also work well with the TS-50 apparently.

Its a pity a cant find a smaller unit for the mobile now.

Have you tried the K40 speech processor? Not sure if its a true RF processor but I have one on my Emporer Shogun that works pretty well.

Have tried it on the TS-50 but it runs out of charge quick because the kenwood only puts out around 7.2 volts on its TX pin. I could do the power conversion mod to supply 12v to this pin but my TS-50 is still under factory warrenty at the mo.

What do you run yours on?
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 861
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Thursday, October 27, 2005 - 9:27 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yep! Datong is British - that's why I thought you might have one. They're all RF speech processors. I see them for sale every so often on auction sites in the UK, but most sellers won't ship to the US, so I've had a hard time collecting the three different models I own.

The oldest one is BUILT LIKE A TANK in a die cast aluminum box so it's totally RF shielded. It uses a DIN socket for output. Interestingly, it has no power switch. Shorting two pins of the DIN plug will power the unit from an internal 9V battery if installed, or it can be powered through the transceiver's microphone jack. Very cool design.

The two newer models have a pair of phono plugs for output - one for audio and one for PTT. Both are battery powered - one by a 9V and one by 8 AA cells - and they also have DC power jacks. Datong recommends battery power to avoid RF infiltration.

One of the older RF speech processors I have actually takes 8 D cells internally for power! I can't imagine how long they would last. It was made in the '60s and is also built like a tank.

Most of the RF processors I have are wired for external DC power. Some can use either external DC power or batteries, and some are either AC or external DC powered.

I haven't found a K40 microphone or CB at a price that I want to pay. They're compression processors so they do increase the average modulation level, but not nearly as much as an RF processor can. I like RF processors more than compression processors because they offer so much more average output and suffer less from background noise.
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26_op_141
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Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 6:52 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Wow. You have quite a colection.

Yes I thought that my be the case with the K40 mic,ie a compressor as opposed to a true RF processor.Still it does work Ok. According to K40 paper work they claim its a processor??!!

Stop press.
Just had an email from the guy who sold me my RF550. He has just offered me a Daiwa RF670 for more or less the same price as I paid for the other unit.Its a small mobile unit so would fit in my mobile better and could be stuck to the under side of my TS-50. Do you know if these model is crystal filtered? Any experiance of it?

Do you know all the models DAIWA actually made? Not sure how good this model is?

Cheers

Tim
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 864
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, October 28, 2005 - 8:34 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yeah, I have quite a few of them. I guess you could call me a collector, an enthusiast, or just nuts.

Compression is speech processing so they're accurate in referring to it that way. Speech processing is either compression or clipping and can be either AF or RF based. I think most microphone manufacturers just refer to it as compression rather than processing. I've heard great things about K40's microphones, so they must have done a good job with them. Too bad they aren't made anymore.

I don't have an RF-670 so I don't know if it's crystal filtered, but the RF-440 isn't and it works great so the RF-670 should too. If it is crystal filtered I'd guess it's design is based around 455KHz rather than 10.7MHz because the ceramic filters can be much smaller.

It should be about the same size as my mobile processor which is about the size of a pack of cigarettes only wider so it's nearly square (92mmx90mmx25mm not counting knobs and switches). It'll definitely be easier to use mobile.

I don't know all of the models that Daiwa made or who actually made them. I'm still compiling a list of RF processors and trying to collect them all myself.
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26_op_141
Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 52
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 9:57 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

445,

Tried the RF550 on my friends Kenwood TS-850S.

Adjusted the 550 processor as normal and then turned on the rigs processor too.Wow! Great results...

I thought it would be too much for the rig but audio came up 20% louder (and it was already loud). No distortion and audio quality/tone was still good.

I guess it was working the finals hard but the increase over a stock TS-850 was amazing.

Is it safe to drive an external processor into a rigs processor? (I kept it within ALC levels of course).

Im going to buy that guys RF670 too. One more for the collection.Like you said its only the size of a cigarette pack,perfect for the mobile.No X tal filter in it,Ive checked with the guy but its the ceramic type. Sure it will be fine.

K40 speech processor mics were very popular here back in the 70's/80's.

I own both types the MK1 with the high/low switch and the Mk2 without the switch.

MK1 is the best quality and best sounding.
MK2 is cheaply made and has an astatic element! K40 bought them in whne stocks finished on K40's own!!
Only advantage of MK2 is that it automatically adjusts to your voice, ie it has no gain control. Apparently they updated "charly" chip when they made the MK2.

Looks like im getting a collection too, HI Hi :-)

73

Tim
26 OP 141
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 874
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 01, 2005 - 8:46 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Using compression before RF clipping to even out the audio level is fairly common and is incorporated in some processor's design, but I never thought about using two RF processors in series. Didn't the audio sound harsh and unnatural?

The TS850 must have been working at a very high duty cycle. What kind of output wattage were you running? With that much processing I'd try to keep it within the normal AM range.

You said you kept it within normal ALC levels - did you let it show any ALC indication on the meter? Because the audio was already processed there's really no reason to run the levels high enough to activate the ALC which is a form of compression used to limit output levels. The processor would actually be the limiter at that point, so you don't need the one built into the radio. I'd adjust the output of the processor until it just shows some ALC action, then slowly back it down until there is no ALC level.

I'm sure the RF-670 will work well. Ceramic filtering is just as good as crystal filtering, it's just used at different freqeuncies. Your TS50 has a 455KHz IF with ceramic filtering as most radios do. Good luck with the RF-670! Let us know how it works and about any further additions to your collection.
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26_op_141
Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 59
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 10:33 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Hollowpoint,

Got the Daiwa RF670 yesterday and wired it up to the TS-50.

Works great!

Used original Kenwood Mic as input and the audio quality is nearly the same as bypassing processor.

on average I increased 1 'S' point to all the stations I went back to on SSB.

Its the size of a packet of cigarettes so I’m going to stick it to the rig using Velcro stickers.

I know mine is branded Daiwa but I wonder how many other companies marketed it?

73

Tim
26 OP 141
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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 912
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Friday, November 18, 2005 - 6:59 pm:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Good deal! I think they were custom manufactured for or by Daiwa because I haven't seen any like them anywhere. I wish they were made in larger quantities so they were easier to find.

Did you open it up to see if it uses ceramic or crystal filters? I'm just curious about the difference between yours and mine. Mine uses no ceramic or crystal filtering. It's similar in design to the RF-440 - just much smaller.
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26_op_141
Member
Username: 26_op_141

Post Number: 62
Registered: 2-2005
Posted on Monday, November 21, 2005 - 11:12 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

Yes I did open it up.This is a ceramic type. No big crystal filters in here !! Wish I had the original manual for it. Does anyone have a copy?

I'll take a pic inside and post so you can compare

Tim


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Hollowpoint445
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Username: Hollowpoint445

Post Number: 920
Registered: 6-2004
Posted on Tuesday, November 22, 2005 - 7:16 am:   Edit Post Delete Post    Move Post (Moderator/Admin Only)

A picture would be great.

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