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Message |
    
Pistonpopper
New member
Username: Pistonpopper
Post Number: 3
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 9:36 pm: | 
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I am looking into replacing the RG8-U/95 foam coax on my base antenna with a "better" coax, something like the bigger 213 or even 9913. I am thinking of running a 300 watt amp with my RCI 2980WX base. Since I live in a trailer in a trailer park (RV Park) I am concerned about bleed over, and being a "clean" operating station. I have the Antron 99 on a pushup pole about 36 foot in the air. The equipment,antenna,and trailer are all grounded, but I think I need to run a heavier ground wire like a #2 groundwire with the ground straps for the equipment. I used the copper braid from some old coax. Any further suggestions would be greatly appreciated. Feel free to email direct if ya'll would like. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member
Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2382
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 10:56 pm: |
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besides insuring proper grounding & properly attached connectors, i have seen for myself over many years, the benefits of double-shielded coax such as 9086/9913. eliminated ALL (noticeable) RFI from my high powered mobile & have no rfi at my base since switching to 9086 almost 20 years ago(now have 9913 base, too). |
Road_warrior
Senior Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 1226
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, February 05, 2006 - 11:21 pm: |
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I'll vote for Belden 9913.
I like it. |
Pistonpopper
New member
Username: Pistonpopper
Post Number: 5
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Monday, February 06, 2006 - 6:53 pm: |
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Thanks, the technician that I use thinks that since I am only going up 40 ft., that I really would be throwing away money for the added expense of 9913. He says that with the distance I'm going the bigger213 would do me, but I think that I may go with the double sheilded 9913, since I want to do ALL that I can to keep my station as free from rfi as possible. What kind of price, and where can I get it at the cheapest price? |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1197
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 12:14 am: |
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LMR-400 would be my choice. Copper likely has the best price on both cables. |
Mikefromms
Advanced Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 844
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 11:47 am: |
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I am an LMR-400 man myself. But for a 40 ft. run 213 should more than suffice. On a 200 ft. run, like in my situation, nothing less than LMR-400 for me. You get what you pay for.
mikefromms |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 3501
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 1:52 pm: |
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DITO ...lmr-400 |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1202
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:16 pm: |
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Well.... Truth be told... in my installation, I am a 1/2 inch Heliax man.
Even on a 40 foot run, I would STILL choose LMR-400 because it will help reduce receiver noise. Even in a 10 foot run, I would still choose it. |
Bruce
Senior Member
Username: Bruce
Post Number: 3508
Registered: 9-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, February 07, 2006 - 6:41 pm: |
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833
LMR-400 is all we use at the jail .... |
Hotwire
Advanced Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 875
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 7:56 am: |
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So it looks like the best is 9913 or lmr400. Which is cheaper? Been thinking about upgrading also. |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 979
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, February 08, 2006 - 8:43 pm: |
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I run a long section (125 ft.) of Davis Rf BuryFlex myself. It is great stuff for the home base. Low loss, double shielded, very flexible and a fantastic outer jacket. It was designed to try and compete with LMR 400 and is quite reasonably priced.
With our frequencies, it may be a cheaper alternative to consider without compromising quality.
But I will admit that in my vehicle and my base jumpers are all LMR.
Alsworld |
Pistonpopper
New member
Username: Pistonpopper
Post Number: 6
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 7:11 pm: |
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Al, where did ya'll get the Davis Rf BuryFlex at? Is it about the same price as the 9913? What kind of PL-259 connectors do ya'll use? I heard that the silver or gold connectors when properly soldered help more than the regular ones.
Pistonpopper |
Alsworld
Advanced Member
Username: Alsworld
Post Number: 982
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, February 09, 2006 - 9:22 pm: |
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Pistonpopper,
I don't think they will let me post a link, but any search engine for DavisRF will surely find the homepage. I believe it is actually cheaper in cost than 9913, but the quality is extremely good.
I have tried the gold PL-259's and don't care for them. They seemed cheap in quality. I use now either Amphenol or the top of the line silver. Silver heats up quickly and produces good results for me. I tend to buy in bulk over the internet, so they come out reasonably cheap when buying more than 10.
I recently needed a connector and was out. Went to RS in desperation and found a nice quality PL-259 (surprising actually), but for over $6 for one! OUCH! Coppers has a good deal on Amphenols which are really good connectors (nickle plated vs silver, but the standard for years) and that is what I have in my garage currently.
Alsworld |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 9259
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 3:47 pm: |
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Pistonpopper,
CLICK on the LINK below:
RG213U NC Bury Flex Coax
Same as Davis Rf BuryFlex but Much more reasonable in price. 
As far as the best deal on QUALITY PL-259 Connectors CLICK on the LINK below.
10 Pack PL259 Coax Connector
Personally I feel that the Quality on the amphenol products over the last couple of years has DECREASED as the price has INCREASED.
Hope this helps,
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9CEF
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Pistonpopper
New member
Username: Pistonpopper
Post Number: 7
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Friday, February 10, 2006 - 7:35 pm: |
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Thanks guys. I'll go with the connectors, and will research further on the coax. Do I get it right that the bury flex is comparable to 9913 with the degree of loss the same? I'll try calling my order in next week after I get off work. Hopefully I won't have to work as late as I have this past week!
Pistonpopper |
2ir473
Member
Username: 2ir473
Post Number: 73
Registered: 7-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, February 11, 2006 - 10:25 am: |
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I have used the RG-213U NC coax from Copper and it works good, and it is reasonably priced.
I used it on an antenna install for my father-in-law, where it ran about 70 feet, buried underground. It works well and they ship it quickly, so that is a good deal. |
Dale
Intermediate Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 313
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 8:17 pm: |
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yea about 2 months ago i also went 2 radio store for a pl259 connector i broke down and bouht it soilered it on then was looking around coppers seen the price of thier pl259s i about cried. for the shipping wait it would have been worth it ill NEVER do it again.i think coppers slogan should have been you got questions we got answers....lol
dale/cef426 |
Pistonpopper
Junior Member
Username: Pistonpopper
Post Number: 12
Registered: 1-2006
| | Posted on Sunday, February 12, 2006 - 10:05 pm: |
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Lon, is the c70-05060 silver plated? Also, what kind of price does Coppers have on the lmr=400 coax? Couldn't find it in the catalog or on the website. There's a group of us going together so that a 1000 ft spool of lmr-400 is what they have decided upon getting.
Pistonpopper |
Sparkomatic
Intermediate Member
Username: Sparkomatic
Post Number: 413
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 9:39 am: |
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RG8X Mini 8
For under 500 watts why waste money on 213 or 9913 unless you plan on buying a bigger amp.
Most Mini 8 is shielded 95% so that is NOT an issue. |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1458
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 11:24 am: |
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Spark, the issue is- you really should use 100% shielded coax. Not only for less interference to other stuff while transmitting, but for a quiet receiver too. Running 95% coax past noise sources (other electronics, etc.) will introduce a lot of noise in your receiver. Running 100% shield coax past noise sources introduces no noise in the receiver. Don't forget- In order to communicate with someone, they have to hear you, and YOU have to hear THEM!
It's not just a question of power handling. It is overall station operation that counts. I have seen RG-58U handle 1000 watts before, so what? The trick is getting signal from the radio to antenna, and antenna to receiver in the most efficient way possible for best performance.
BTW, if you guys are interested.... Do you know what RG-58, RG-8M, and RG-8 cables with less then 100% shield were designed for in the first place?? Not for HF, VHF, UHF or above communication installations, I'll tell you. It was for getting signal from longwires to MW (AM BCB) and LW receivers on farms! On the farm prior to consumer electronics and electricity grids, there was no noise anywhere to be found, and it had to be inexpensive- metal was in short supply at the time.
Now that we do have noise sources, we use frequencies above 2 MHz., and metal is much less expensive, we have cables that are designed for today's world like Times Microwave LMR cables and Belden's 9913, etc. |
Chad
Senior Member
Username: Chad
Post Number: 1115
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, September 27, 2006 - 11:16 am: |
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The best coax is the type that has the least amount of loss for your intended frequency use and length. It also mush have the proper jacket composition for your intended app. I find this calculator to be very handy!
http://www.ocarc.ca/coax.htm
I am now personally using Copper Elect (SIW) 213 on my HF, buryflex on my UHF/VHF, and RG6U quad shield that is certified for DSS use on my scaner antenna. The runs are about 50' for transmittng coax and 70' for the scanner.
Chad |
Oldpirate
Intermediate Member
Username: Oldpirate
Post Number: 105
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Friday, October 06, 2006 - 3:31 am: |
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There is also a coax made that is low loss with the same diameter as RG8 although less flexible that has significantly less loss than RG8 so if you wanted coax of a smaller diameter than RG213 this would be a good choice, from memory losses were about the same as RG213 |
404
Member
Username: 404
Post Number: 54
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 8:51 am: |
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If I did the coax calculation right, using Belden RG 8 vs Belden RG213,the 213 would have more loss than the RG 8.Is that correct? |
Chad
Senior Member
Username: Chad
Post Number: 1138
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 10:40 am: |
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Correct, remember that there are different brands of RG213 listed wiht different loss factors. At 27MHz there are a lot of choices. It's once you get up there in freq line loss plays a VERY important role.
For RG213 you can't go wrong with the SIW that Copper sells. I recently bought some for the HF side of things and it's felxable and easy to work with.
Chad |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 2144
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Monday, October 09, 2006 - 11:02 pm: |
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the difference between using 213 and 9913/LMR400 is the extra shielding. the 9913 and the LMR400 have a foil shieldon the outside of the dielectric, just underneath the braid. this foil is the difference between 95% and 100% shielding.
i guess 95% is as tight as they can weave copper braid.
if you are worried about TVI then you should go with the 100% shielded cable. if you still have TVI after that, you wont be kicking yourself for not buying the better coax.
it made a difference in both my base and my mobile setup to upgrade from 213 to LMR400 on the base, and from mini 8 to LMR240 in the mobile.
quieted both receivers byu a noticable ammount. especially in the mobile!
i do not like the jacket on 9913. it moves around too much in relation to the braid in my opinion.
just seems flimsy to me.
when you handle LMR400, you know you are handling GOOD coax. it is quite stiff though. not great for making baluns out of.
remember, your station is only as strong as its weakest link.
matt |
Oldpirate
Intermediate Member
Username: Oldpirate
Post Number: 108
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Tuesday, October 10, 2006 - 9:14 pm: |
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Just did a search and the coax I had been describing in my previous post was LRM-240 which is a low loss version of RG8 main difference is it has a solid center conductor and so is quite a bit stiffer. |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 2148
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Saturday, October 14, 2006 - 9:34 pm: |
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LMR240 is the size of RG8MINI, not RG8.
it is very good coax, and is plenty flexible.
this is what i run in my mobile.
matt |
Oldpirate
Intermediate Member
Username: Oldpirate
Post Number: 111
Registered: 11-2003
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 1:28 am: |
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I stand corrected, what I meant to say was the RG8mini, LRM240 is slightly more stiffer than the more conventional coax's of similar diameter but like I said it is a good choice when you don't want to go up to the diameter of RG213. Losses are approximately the same as RG213 and it is a lot cheaper than LRM400 and approximately the same price as RG213. |
Kid_vicious
Senior Member
Username: Kid_vicious
Post Number: 2154
Registered: 9-2004
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 10:22 pm: |
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also, the LMR240 is 100% shielded making it superior to RG8 and RG213. power handling is about the same too.
matt |
Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 1493
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, October 15, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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It's 'LMR', not 'LRM'. Think- Land Mobile Radio... |
Maxgain
New member
Username: Maxgain
Post Number: 6
Registered: 3-2007
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 7:20 pm: |
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LMR-400 DB (direct burial). |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 13343
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 8:47 pm: |
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If you are going to dig to bury the coax it is just as easy to bury it in PVC to further protect it.
I personally would suggest using the Altelicon CA-400 Series Cable inside of PVC, it has the EXACT same specifications as LMR but MUCH Cheaper at only .59 per foot.
CA-400 Series Coax Cable
The CA-400 low loss cable is a high performance alternative to RG8/U, CommScope® WBC-400, Times Microwave Systems® LMR-400, Belden® 9914 / 9913 / 7810 and Andrew® CNT-400 coax cable.
Altelicon CA-400 is a UV resistant polyethylene lacketed high performance flexible Low Loss coaxial cable. This coaxial cable has become a "standard" of the outdoor wireless LAN and WLL industries. This lightweight cable has excellent low loss characteristics and a durable UV protected black polyethylene jacket. The Altelicon CA-400 features equal performance and mechanical characteristics to cables from CommScope®, Times Microwave Systems®, Belden and Andrew®.
Construction Specification (Layer - Material - Diameter)
Inner Conductor - Copper/Aluminum - 2.74mm / 0.108in
Dielectric - Physical Foam Polyethylene - 7.24mm / 0.285in
Outer Conductor - Bonded Aluminum Foil + Tinned Copper Braid - 8.13mm / 0.320in
Jacket - Black Polyethylene - 10.29mm / 0.405in
Electrical Characteristics
Capacitance : 77.1pF/m
Impedance : 50ohm
Velocity : 85%
Inner Conductor DC Resistance : 2.92(Ω/km)
Outer Conductor DC Resistance : 5.41(Ω/km)
Shielding Effectiveness : > 90dB
Cutoff Frequency : 16.2 GHz
Peak Power : 16KW
Mechanical and Environmental Characteristics
Min. Bend Radius : 51mm / 2.0in
Operating Temp. : -40°C to +80°C
Tensile Strength : 72.6kg / 160lb
Cable Weight : 0.099kg/m 0.068lb/ft
RoHS Compliant : Yes
Attenuation and Avg. Power (20°C)
(Frequency - Attenuation dB - Avg. Power)
30MHz - (2.2@100m / 0.7@100ft) - 3.30KW
50MHz - (2.9@100m / 0.9@100ft) - 2.60KW
150MHz - (5.0@100m / 1.5@100ft) - 1.50KW
220MHz - (6.10@100m / 1.86@100ft) - 1.20KW
450MHz - (8.9@100m / 2.7@100ft) - 0.83KW
900MHz - (12.8@100m / 3.9@100ft) - 0.58KW
1500MHz - (16.8@100m / 5.13@100ft) - 0.44KW
1800MHz - (18.6@100m / 5.67@100ft) - 0.40KW
2000MHz - (19.6@100m / 6.0@100ft) - 0.37KW
2500MHz - (22.2@100m / 6.8@100ft) - 0.33KW
5800MHz - (35.5@100m / 10.8@100ft) - 0.21KW
CLICK HERE > Altelicon CA-400
Lon ~ Tech808 ~ N9CEF
CEF#808 ~ CEF HAM#33 ~ CVC#002
10-10 #61493 ~ 10-10 VP#2688
Tech808@copperelectronics.com
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Dale
Advanced Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 695
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 29, 2007 - 9:05 pm: |
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lmr at 50ft
lmr at 150ft
lmr400c at5ft
dale/a.k.a.hotrod
cef426
cvc#64
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Kf4gyp
Junior Member
Username: Kf4gyp
Post Number: 33
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Friday, February 22, 2013 - 11:50 am: |
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since you did not put any conditions on the coax question and ask what cable is the best check out this stuff!!
LCF158-50JL
73 Ray/Hawk-Eye
DE KF4GYP
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Charliebrown
Intermediate Member
Username: Charliebrown
Post Number: 279
Registered: 10-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, February 24, 2013 - 5:19 pm: |
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If I remember correctly the ca 600 is about a 0.5 db loss for 100 foot. 500 foot will cost about $500.00 so check it out on the net |
Kf4gyp
Junior Member
Username: Kf4gyp
Post Number: 34
Registered: 11-2009
| | Posted on Friday, August 09, 2013 - 9:20 pm: |
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Wave guide is the best of the best and leaves the rest behind like a bad habit!!!!!!!!!!!
73 Ray/Hawk-Eye
DE KF4GYP
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Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 2259
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, August 15, 2013 - 1:41 am: |
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Waveguide is only "best" at microwave frequencies. Waveguide for CB would be almost 20 feet diameter.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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Dale
Senior Member
Username: Dale
Post Number: 1948
Registered: 12-2002
| | Posted on Saturday, August 17, 2013 - 8:03 am: |
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the coax that coppers has here ca-400
should be all ya really need. unless
you need hundreds of feet then im not sure
dale/a.k.a.hotrod
cef426
cvc#64
454 [dx numbers]
38lsb
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Tech833
Moderator
Username: Tech833
Post Number: 2260
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Sunday, August 18, 2013 - 9:25 pm: |
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If you need several hundred feet to connect the radio to the antenna, then look for some Heliax (semi-rigid) cable. A lot of hams often incorrectly call this type of cable "hardline". Actually, hard-line comes in 10 or 20 foot sections and bolts together with flanges and uses bullets to connect the inner conductors. We usually use hard-line for plumbing things inside the transmitter building, then transition to semi-rigid cable for the run up the tower.
Your radio 'Mythbuster' since 1998
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