Author |
Message |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 2 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Sunday, March 05, 2006 - 10:40 pm: |
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I'm thinking about getting a Palomar 900HD can anyone give me some opinions on it.. Right now I'm useing a palomar deluxe 250 base just seems like its not doing the job.. I want more power.. |
Waterboy
Member Username: Waterboy
Post Number: 57 Registered: 7-2003
| Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 11:55 am: |
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does Palomar make a 900 hi drive?? |
Black_hawk
Junior Member Username: Black_hawk
Post Number: 18 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 4:06 pm: |
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I don't know anyone who bought one.It's a 4x2879. |
Moonraker
Intermediate Member Username: Moonraker
Post Number: 168 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 8:38 pm: |
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I talked to a guy a few weeks ago who was running one, I didn't ask how many watts he was getting out of it, but it sounded good. |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 4 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 9:17 pm: |
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Do you guys think that a 50 amp power supply would push the 900HD?? |
Moonraker
Intermediate Member Username: Moonraker
Post Number: 169 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Monday, March 06, 2006 - 10:16 pm: |
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I read on one of the internet auctions the 900 has 2 2290's driving 4 2829's. A Texas Star 500 has 4 2879's and draws around 45-50 amps. Just taking a guess, I would say the 900 would draw about 70 amps...maybe??????? |
Darkseid
New member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 1 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 2:20 am: |
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4 2SC2879 120W * 4 = 480 watts 2 2SC2290 = 80W * 2 = 160 watts 480+160 = 640 watts total 640 watts / 12.6 volts = 50 amps head room of 20 amps. 50+20= 70 amps maybe 70 amps would work for deadkey.... + add another 20 amps for audio swing... 90 amps total I'm just guessing this would be a way of calculating this. There is probably a better way of calculating, but this is how I would do it. |
Hotwire
Senior Member Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 1031 Registered: 1-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 8:46 am: |
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Actually trying is the best IMHO. Wicked I run a 4 X 2879 Texas Star box on a PS52 supply. Its just shy of 50 amps constant I think. Driving those four pills to the max in AM mode is no trouble for the power supply but it is topped out. Now in SSB mode I can't drive the amp as hard or the power supply will trip out. So 50 amps can work for a 4 pill if not over driven AM and easy on SSB. If I had 20 more amps SSB would have no problems. If the amp was a 2 driving 4 I would want at least a 100 amp supply and capable of higher voltage for a custom. I believe you should always have a little extra of everything so nothing is stretched to the max. Right now I never run my amp max unless I need that extra watt for DX. Looking at a custom power supply from Skywalker for big toys in the future.73 |
Black_hawk
Junior Member Username: Black_hawk
Post Number: 19 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 5:39 pm: |
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Palomar 900V 80-100 amps. 800-1000 PEP Palomar 900HD 80-110 amps when using a driver. 1000-1100 PEP |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 5 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 7:27 pm: |
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Well that sounds good.. Its because I was given a 50 amp power supply the other day. I wasnt sure if it can push the 900HD.. I guess I might just put the amp on a battery I have a few here anyway.. maybe I'll sell the power supply. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2530 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 7:56 pm: |
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darkseid, correction, you don't add the transistors together for output. the 2x2290 'drive' the 4x2879 to their maximum output level. final figures only estimates, the 4x2879 will not reach max 'driven' by a 4 watt or 10 watt radio. the 2x2290 portion of the amp will. its job in turn, is to see that the 4x2879's 'do their thing'. in answer to wickedwayz Q, you would probably get the same results hotwire gets with his dx500/ps52 combo. power ratings are WAY too generous on the pal900. even if you are seeing anywhere near that #, anything much over 500 PEP is harmonics, hash, trash & other assorted non-useable garbage. your pal250 probably sees near 150 PEP, you need an amp that REALLY sees 300 PEP for even the slightest difference, 600PEP should be fairly noticeable. the 900HD is incorrectly labeled if they are considering it 'high drive' & it contains 2x2290 driver, unless 'hd' means 'heavy duty' to palomar? |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 6 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 8:25 pm: |
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I'm not too sure. I'm kinda new on useing linears.. I've never had one intill about a few months ago. my friend gave me the palomar 250 base.. so now that i'm talking more on the radio I want more power. |
Black_hawk
Junior Member Username: Black_hawk
Post Number: 20 Registered: 2-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 9:31 pm: |
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The 900HD is new.Its in the same case as the the 900V.Palomar just left out the 2x2290 driver stage. Get this Palomar even installs the variable power control on the front of 900HD but its not connected. |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 7 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 9:53 pm: |
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howcome the variable control is not connected??? do you guys think this would be a good amp to get?? |
Moonraker
Intermediate Member Username: Moonraker
Post Number: 171 Registered: 3-2005
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 10:48 pm: |
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I just read an sales ad. for one of the 900 HD amps that blackhawk mentioned in his post (I didn't know they existed until today). They have 4 2879's, the face plate is punched out just like one of the other palomar amps and they put the power switch in only to fill the hole. The ad. said it would take 100 watts drive to get full power (I assume they mean 100 watts pep.) They claim it will do 1000-1100 watts...but I have my doubts. |
Wickedwayz
New member Username: Wickedwayz
Post Number: 8 Registered: 9-2002
| Posted on Tuesday, March 07, 2006 - 11:25 pm: |
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Do you think this amp would be worth spending $300 on?? |
Darkseid
New member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 4 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 2:25 am: |
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I was referring to Moonraker's post above me. Patzerozero thanks pointing that out, though I'm not adding rf output from the 900V, just total power output from the transistors. Estimating how big of a power supply that would be needed to run cool. One might blow their transistors in their 50/40amp constant. "power supply" using the Palomar 900V totaling over 640 watts from the 6 transistors alone.. The 4 X 2879 Texas Star or the Palomar 900HD box would equal around (total Pout) 480 watts / 12.6 volts = 38amps. One could get by using 50/40amp constant. "power supply" but would not see their full potential, not much headroom for the power supply as Hotwire pointed out, about 60 or more amps would be preferable. I doubt you would get the same results compared to the 900V.. Wickedwayz, the variable control is not needed in the 900HD, "HD stands for High-Drive" the 900V uses 2x2290 to drive the 4x2879. The 900HD you could use a higher watt radio to drive, since it does not have the 2x2290 in it. Usually higher watt radio's have a variable control, so no issues there. The 900HD amp will give you roughly the same output as the 900V when driven I would guess. I never tried the Palomar amps, I'm just guessing and estimating.. Anyway Patzerozero, what is the correct way of finding the right size power supply? The way I do it seems to work good for me, my lights never dim when I keydown |
Dd18
Member Username: Dd18
Post Number: 75 Registered: 11-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 5:27 am: |
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My DX500 gets 650W PEP on a Hansen Peak reading meter when driven with 60W from an AR3500...still sounds good but needs the fans... |
Hotwire
Senior Member Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 1035 Registered: 1-2005
| Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 9:24 am: |
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Wickedwayz, 300 bucks is not bad for a 2X4. Only own one very old Palomar and its a good amp and works fine for its age. I'm not sure on quality today since Palomar has been out of business for a while now. Should be OK as long as you don't abuse it. Darkseid IMHO when your looking for a power supply larger than a 50 - 60 amp constant for an amp 500 watts or more I would look for a base unit. You will save a LOT of money. If you want to run a BIG mobile in the house more than 500 watts then personally I would consider one of the power supplys built by the custom amp companys. Most run on 220 volts AC and output capable of 200 amp plus at 12 volts to 24 volts. You can get smaller running 110 volts AC. Be sure to have a dedicated circuit in the shack! 73 |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2533 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Wednesday, March 08, 2006 - 3:48 pm: |
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25 amps draw for each pair of 2-2sc2879's is a VERY VERY rough estimate, maybe even add another 20% draw for each pair after the 1st. that'll get you talking, full ouput is another story. custom amps swing more, therefore draw more. |
Darkseid
New member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 6 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Thursday, March 09, 2006 - 2:58 am: |
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Hotwire, I just bought the TS DX500V a few days ago from Copper, had I seen that link before hand, I would of went with the 140-Amp Power Supply first, then a much bigger Texas Star DX1600! Though I will be happy with the DX500, always wanted one after hearing them on the airwaves. I knew a guy who ran two DX500 together like a DX 1600, of course it was modified. That kind of got me looking at the schematics of the Texas Stars recently and noticed all the circuit boards look the same all the way down to the 250. After getting a good Power Supply, I may get another DX500 and mod it myself with the other one ... I do have a golden screwdriver with a few scratches on it. |
Allan
Junior Member Username: Allan
Post Number: 39 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 11:53 am: |
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Like it was posted, they just left the 2SC-2290's out, I'm sure for the new breed of radio's out there that already come with the 2290's in them. Found this info on a internet site... They call for 80-110 AMP's to run it. PALOMAR 900 HIGH DRIVE AMPLIFIER AM/FM/SSB Heavy Duty Circuit Board With A Long Heat Sink 25 db Preamp Gain 100 Drive on AM/FM 100 Watt Drive on SSB 4 - 2SC2879 Transistors 1000 - 1100 watts PEP average 80-110 Amps to power this amp LED Indicators for Power ON/OFF LED Indicators for Pre-amp ON/OFF LED Indicators for Power Output AM/SSB Select Switch Size 11" X 6 5/8" X 3" |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2613 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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wishful thinking on the part of whoever slapped palomars name on it. input for the 2879's-100 watts PEP, AM/SSB, 20 watts carrier AM/FM. 4 x 120 watts = 480 PEP output. depending on the transformers, MAYBE up to 600 PEP. max output could probably be reached at around 65 amp draw. put a TVI filter on it & watch the watts(harmonics) disappear. |
Allan
Junior Member Username: Allan
Post Number: 42 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 7:53 pm: |
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Lost me there, Pat. One verson of the 900 has two 2290's driving the four 2879's, and the new high drive model, I assume, can reach the same output with just the four 2879's with an export radio that already has the 2290's driving them. Seems to be a new market for amps to mate up to these higher output radios that the buyers are getting. But, in reality, the model numbers on these amps can't mean AM/FM RMS. More like PEP on sideband, would be my feeble guess. ( I need the clipart attachment with a shoe sticking out of the mouth) lol |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2618 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Saturday, March 25, 2006 - 10:27 pm: |
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1100watts PEP out of the design of that amp is NOT going to happen. & for the people that may CLAIM to get 1100, it is NOT useful watts, but bleedover, harmonics, hash & other useless trash. the most useful watts it will do is going to be between 400 & 600 PEP. driver watts, whether from the radio, the amp itself or a separate amp are not part of total output, but what contributes to the development of the output by the 'final four'. the model # is a 'tease' more then anything else. you really can't go by the model #, but by the transistors it uses. |
Ak3383
Junior Member Username: Ak3383
Post Number: 23 Registered: 11-2005
| Posted on Sunday, March 26, 2006 - 2:03 am: |
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RF power watts cannot be used in the P-I-E formula. apples and oranges. |
Darkseid
Junior Member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 11 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 3:31 am: |
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One 2SC2879 would probably produce about 40-60 Watts out in a well built linear. Now if I was to use the RF OUTPUT in the P-I-E formula. Say one 2SC2879 keys down 60 watts, 60 watts / 12.6 volts = 4.7 amps ...... There is noway 4 amps would work. So your right apples and oranges... lol However, I'm measuring just total power output from the transistors. Just using the specs from say a 2SC2879, Pout Watts 120W Pin Watts 7W = 127 watts total. 127 watts / 12.6 volts = 10 amps Then I add a little for headroom and audio swing. I know this is not the correct way for this, but it works..... Power is the amount of current times the voltage level at a given point measured in watts. I don't know if the specs of the 2SC2879 is rated in rf wattage or v*i ??? But hey it works for me lol. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2642 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Thursday, March 30, 2006 - 6:42 pm: |
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every pair of 2sc2879's need around 30 or more amps for full output. every pair of 2sc2290's need around 20 or more amps. some comp amplifiers, as well as how just how hard you're hitting everything, can raise or lower the current requirements. |
Darkseid
Junior Member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 12 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 3:30 am: |
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Pat, I was trying to make it look more difficult lol..... Hey, I have a question to ask you. I'm thinking about buying the XForce 400-HD. Would I be able to run a Texas Star DX 500V using the dial a watt into the 400-HD. If so, how many watts can the XForce 400-HD take in? Would the max output be around PEP 1000 Watts? I was debating about getting the TS dx 1200 so I can hit close to the 1000w mark.... Now It seems it will be cheaper if I get the XForce 400-HD, since I already have the TS 500v. I'm thinking about running them on 2 different battery banks. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2652 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 10:12 am: |
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the x400 is a 4 x 2879 amp. it'll handle 15-20 watts dead key & around 150-200 PEP input. if you adjust the INPUT up to that 15-20 watt #, stop at about 225-250 dead key output from the amp. adjust mic gain up til RMS SWING OUTPUT from x400 reaches about 550-600. your PEP swing should be around 850. stop adjusting PEP upwards once RMS swing stops increasing. any more PEP is just trash. on an accurate, quality meter, i DOUBT you'll see 1000 watts at 13.8 volts or less. a lot of custom amps are rated at 15 volts & 20 volts. a stock alternator/power supply will provide 1-2 volts less, therefore a bit lower output then specified. 13 or 15 volts probably won't show any difference to whoever is hearing you. as for using the dx500...yeah, but you'd have to be REAL careful with dead key & swing. keep an eye on the dialawatt control, they do burn out frequently when used at OTHER then full power. you'll turn the knob up & suddenly get FULL POWER from the 500, & the x400 will NOT be happy. a dx1200 won't see 1000 watts. no more then the x400, maybe less. need at least 75 amp alt for x400, 100 amp+ would be great. a couple high CCA/high reserve batteries would be fine with the stock alt. put one right at the amp if possible, then run it back to the underhood one & alt. |
Darkseid
Junior Member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 13 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 3:30 pm: |
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Thanks for the info Pat, I have few more questions I'm using a PDC 700 meter, the top setting is 1000 watts, so 850W would be good for what I'm looking for... I just want to fill the meter up and not bend the needle, and be able to keep both pedal pushers from getting to hot. Although the Texas Star does swing 500W and deadkey 125W, not even break a sweat. Hmmm, Do you think its worth getting 350W to 500W more swing this way with the 400-HD? On the the TX500 dialawatt control, which part usually goes out, Is it the VR1 250ohm POT rated at 2W ? (looking at the schematics ) If so, is there a better part replacement, "higher wattage rating" for this pot. On the 400-HD, can it reach 1000 PEP at higher volts, not that it matters from 850 lol, but I would like to know. Maybe use a 6v battery in series, or would it be to much of a hassle for the battery... I'm running my stuff out in my shed, already have a 1200A deep cycle battery to the TX500v, using a trickle charge from my battery charger hooked to a timer. I'm thinking about picking up a car volt meter today at the autostore, so I can keep an eye on it. |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2657 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Saturday, April 01, 2006 - 8:07 pm: |
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if you can get it past 1000, receiving stations just MIGHT see a very slight increase-at best. yup that's the pot. had a dx350hdv that burned it at least 5 times...from adjusting carrier from amp instead of radio. also have a dx-mod-v that burned out the 100W pot it uses several times. never found anything better, replacements are available for about 6 bucks. at 20 volts it'll almost double the output, 400-450 dead key & 1400-1500 PEP. 20 volts will wear down the amp quicker then normal... |
Darkseid
Junior Member Username: Darkseid
Post Number: 14 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 4:39 am: |
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Again... Thanks Pat I bet about ten or more 1ohm .5w carbon film resistors in paralell, hooked in series to the 250 ohm pot could cure the Texas Star VR problem. It wouldn't hurt to add one extra ohm ... plus those resistors are cheap, it'll take no time to make a little circuit board full of resistors to tack on behind the VR.... I may just try that, could save money in the long run. I think I talked myself into the 400-HD with your help lol..... Originally, was saving up for the next batch of Omega's..... But that money is burning a hole in my pocket ..... I don't know If I can hold out any longer lol............... |
Allan
Member Username: Allan
Post Number: 50 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 11:01 am: |
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I see alot of posts using battery chargers to keep batteries charged to run mobile amps in base applications. I thought of trying this years ago, but dropped the idea thinking these chargers use, at best, a 1/2 wave rectifier to convert to DC. I figured it would take a full wave to give true DC current for the application. Do you have to add any chokes or filters to the loop, or do the batteries actually absorb most or all of the AC (buzz) that, most likely, would sneak in. Just curious.... |
Allan
Member Username: Allan
Post Number: 52 Registered: 2-2006
| Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 12:51 pm: |
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After posting the above, I did some more research in the forum, and ran across this... As stated, it can be effective and will work, but keep in mind of a few things. Household current runs at about 115 volts. Car/Marine batteries run between 12-14 volts. That is not the worry here, it is the amperage (amps) that can kill you. Household current usually won't, but the 12V environment and the amount of amperage a battery can put out is truly scary. Now, that is scary advice! He sounds a little bass ackerds, to me.....(I find the Preview/Post Message button very helpful in fixing any goofs, hopefully, before turning one loose) Oh, did find some archive posts stating they would use a large value capacitor across the posts to kill the ripple. Makes sense..... |
Patzerozero
Senior Member Username: Patzerozero
Post Number: 2664 Registered: 7-2004
| Posted on Sunday, April 02, 2006 - 4:52 pm: |
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have set 'em up more then once, allan, never with any problems. have found SOME chargers add noise to the receive & some don't. last one was a dx1600 with 2 optimas & a sears charger. kept on low charge, amp showed 700-800 watt peaks, on the 30(or 40?) amp boost, it would peak over 1kw. he still uses it. |
Johnbrowning
Junior Member Username: Johnbrowning
Post Number: 31 Registered: 9-2006
| Posted on Sunday, October 08, 2006 - 11:12 pm: |
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I know that most Amture amp's putting out 500 watts RMS/Continious duty cycle on SSB need 75AMP power supply to do the job proper. Ameritron and MFJ have a 75AMP continious duty cycle switching power supply. It was designed to power their 500 watt solid state amplifer. $369 and it weights some where between 7-10lbs and has all of the current,overload,low voltage protection...... If you are not overdriveing it and stay at around 500 clean watts this might be the way to go! 500 clean watts through a base antena sounds very impressive!!!I would get a speech compressor kit from CBC Intinational or the SP-1a if you can find one and have it installed in the radio. That plus 500 clean watts will make you sound like you are pushing the legal limit for amatures!! |
Oldpirate
Intermediate Member Username: Oldpirate
Post Number: 110 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Friday, October 13, 2006 - 4:14 am: |
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The Palomar 900 would need at least a 90 amp supply. I have an Palomar Elite 450 and running that along with my HR 2510 at half power it pulls about 53 amps at 14 volts. In my opinion a 90 amp supply is minimum size you should be looking at. I also run an AM POWER switchable 5 pill and for this I use a 120amp supply. Murray |
Oldpirate
Intermediate Member Username: Oldpirate
Post Number: 112 Registered: 11-2003
| Posted on Wednesday, October 18, 2006 - 7:17 am: |
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Regarding the talk on using batteries and a charger just be aware that hi charge can give off hydrogen gas and in confined spaces this not only poses a health risk ie suffocation but also the risk of an explosion when combined with other electrical equipment. My advice is use a proper power supply it may be cheaper than building a new house. |