| Author |
Message |
    
Hotwire
Intermediate Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 228
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:53 am: | 
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I have been told to use a ground wire attached to my radio to the chassis of my car and to a ground rod or plumbing pipe if a base setup, not talking about the negative power wire but a single seperate ground. I was wondering if this can cause some type loop and throw off my impedance. Can I get 10 cents worth of edumacation from some of the more knowledgable people here. Anything will be greatly appreciated. |
Mrbigshot
Junior Member
Username: Mrbigshot
Post Number: 49
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:05 am: |
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its reduces rf noise with will cut back squeeling and feedback. it also give the static charge and a lighning strike somewhere to go instead of cooking your radio |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 746
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 10:07 am: |
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I ground all my radio equipment into a strip, then to my outside ground, seems to help the performance, kills some of the white noise.
Rich |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 222
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 3:42 pm: |
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It may or may not help your signal/reception, but that's not the biggest reason to have a good ground. By far, the most important reason is safety. That means a single point grounding system that is connected to your home's electrical system ground - and that's an NEC code requirement. |
Usa2112
Member
Username: Usa2112
Post Number: 60
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:36 pm: |
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I personally would be grounded either to a 9’ ground rod driven directly into the ground or a cold water pipe. Make sure any bends in the ground wire are no more than 45 degrees as lightly usually will not take 90degree bends and will arc out of the ground wire. Building electrical is not suggested in my book. If I have a bad house ground I don't want 220 sitting on my Silver Eagle waiting to cook my rump roast upon keyed. Household AC is supposed to be a decent ground but most old household is cold water ground anyways. Always remember, NEVER SHOWER DURING LIGHTNING, especially us folk with lightning attractors hanging all over the yard and house! Now I know everyone has their own opinions and opinions are like butts, everyone has one and it usually stinks, so don't kill the messenger! |
Road_warrior
Intermediate Member
Username: Road_warrior
Post Number: 430
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 8:51 pm: |
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You need to look up and read info on
this subject. Internet search or buy
and read The ARRL RFI Book.
Groundwires that are to long will cause
you extra grief.
JIM/ PA/ CEF 375 |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 228
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Wednesday, March 30, 2005 - 9:22 pm: |
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The reason for a single point ground system is safety. If your radio is connected to household power in any way it's dangerous to ground it to a separate ground rod without connecting that ground to the house electrical ground system. New grounds are better than old grounds, so it's likely that your new ground rod would become the house ground through your equipment. That's not a good thing and it's why NEC code requires it.
There's a fantastic article about grounding radio equipment titled "An overview of Lightning Protection for Ham Radio Stations" on the internet. Search for it on Google and read it if you're interested. |
Hotwire
Intermediate Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 233
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:57 am: |
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OK thanks guys. Road Warrier I am looking into those problems very close thanks.
USA2112 I understand about not using the house AC ground. Actually Iwas using a gas pipe and I will not go there as to how bad that may be.
Racerx thanks I didnt know saftey was the main concern. Looking for that on google now.
Bigshot and Pig thats what I was wondering too. I wanted to know if it ran off static buildup and noise.
Soooo, I think I'm going to leave it unhooked now until I install my 8 ft copper rod in the ground when I erect my Imax a little higher. Until then my dad who is old school radio guy told me the best protection is when ever it storms just un hook coax from the radio and put the end inside a mason jar and unplug from the wall.
Thank you gentlemen, I appreciate all of you. 73's |
Tech808
Moderator
Username: Tech808
Post Number: 5403
Registered: 8-2002
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:08 am: |
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Hotwire,
Check out the link below and it may be of help to you when setting up you station.
RADIO EQUIPMENT & GROUNDING
Lon
Tech808
CEF808
N9OSN |
Hotwire
Intermediate Member
Username: Hotwire
Post Number: 237
Registered: 1-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:19 am: |
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Thanks Lon. You are such a nice person to know. I have learned so much from you alone on this forum it needs brought to attention. EVERYBODY!!!! Lon is the man! Hope to talk on the net sometime! Hopefully soon since we are neighbors. 73's my friend. |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 749
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 10:57 am: |
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Grounding to a cold water pipe is not a good thing! IT can cause the pipes in your house to become resonant, and cause RFI, I have seen it happen. A seperate ground for radio equipment is best by far.
Rich |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 235
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 7:10 pm: |
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No, no, no. You should NEVER use a separate ground for radio equipment if it's connected to house power. If you're using batteries or some other kind of power it's still not recommended, but at least it's not horribly dangerous.
Adding another ground rod to your home's electrical system and then connecting your radio equipment to that new ground rod is safe and it'll work well too. But it MUST be connected to the ground system for the electrical service to be safe. |
Coyote
Intermediate Member
Username: Coyote
Post Number: 182
Registered: 11-2004
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 8:23 pm: |
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Can I ground the equipment back to the service box? My original ground rod is probably buried under a concrete slab below where the power enters the house and box. Can I still use a seperate ground rod for antenna grounding? I thought I had it all figured out till now. Was going to ground everything back to a new ground rod, but I guess that is not the wise way to do it. It's a pretty long run back to the service box, will that matter as long as I use 10 gauge wire? I don't have to many choices. |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 241
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 9:25 pm: |
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For a radio ground you want a ground rod to be as close as possible to the equipment - so put a ground rod where it is closest to the equipment. But then you have to connect the new ground rod to your home's existing electrical system ground rod in some way. How you'll do that if there is a slab on top of it I don't know. Maybe you should talk to an electrician about getting a new electrical service ground rod installed. |
Unit199
Member
Username: Unit199
Post Number: 92
Registered: 8-2003
| | Posted on Thursday, March 31, 2005 - 11:46 pm: |
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Hotwire,
Don,t ever put your coax in a mason jar when you unhook it. You are making a glass grenade. If lightning hits coax and it goes to the mason jar, you will have glass flying all over the place. So please for safties sake don't put coax end in mason jar.
Semper Fi!!!
Unit199
Harve
CEF210
__________________________
Never kick a cow patty on a hot day!!! |
Bigbob
Senior Member
Username: Bigbob
Post Number: 1818
Registered: 12-2001
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 5:38 am: |
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Racer X,to avoid the ground situation use an isolation transformer to physically seperate the house power from your rig on all 3 legs,might this not help? |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 242
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 6:28 am: |
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Bigbob - Possibly, but you'd have to make sure that you didn't use anything that was connected to house power and the radio ground through the radio or accessories.
I don't know much about isolation transformers - if something bad happened could it short out and just pass the current through the equipment to ground?
What I'd be worried most about would be turning off a lamp (or some other device that isn't plugged into the isolation transformer) and having your body create the link to ground through the radio equipment.
It's worth the extra effort to me to connect the radio ground rod to the house's electrical ground rod and have a single point ground. |
Mikefromms
Advanced Member
Username: Mikefromms
Post Number: 531
Registered: 6-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 10:05 am: |
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While I ground everything, the guys around here believe you are actually attracting lightning to travel through all of your equipment by grounding them together as instructed in the ARRL handbook. Ever hear that argument?
mikefromms |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 752
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 11:09 am: |
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A little experimentation with my radio showed that the chassis was directly connected to the third (grounding) prong of the wall plug. I am concerned that by connecting my receiver to an outside ground I am creating a ground loop that involves my house wiring. Can you comment on this?
Yes, you have a "ground loop". It's harmless. In case of a nearby lightning strike it may actually save your receiver. My R8 isn't grounded like that, so I had to take steps to prevent the coax ground potential from getting wildly out of kilter with the line potential and arcing through the power supply. I'm using a surge supressor designed to protect video equipment: it has both AC outlets and feedthroughs with varistor or gas tube clamps to keep the various relative voltages in check. Of course the best lightning protection is to disconnect the receiver, but I'm a bit absent minded so I need a backup.
Taken from a Ham grounding site.
Rich
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Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 243
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 5:07 pm: |
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Pig040 - While I applaud your efforts, whomever wrote that is just plain wrong. Perhaps the person who responded was gearing his answer strictly to radio operation more than safety. It is essential that any grounds for your antennas or equipment are also connected to the electrical service ground.
This is a quote from a three part article available from the ARRL website:
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/0206056.pdf
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/0207048.pdf
http://www.arrl.org/tis/info/pdf/0208053.pdf
"The second item is the perimeter ground, shown in Figure 13 as going completely around the house or equipment building. This perimeter ground serves two purposes: first, it helps conduct the surge energy around the house, minimizing the ground potential differences under the house during the strike event; and second, it enhances the basic ground system by providing more connection points to the earth. The existing utility ground is also connected to the perimeter ground—this is a must!"
It was written by Ron Block. These are his credentials listed at the end of the article:
Ron Block, KB2UYT, has been a PolyPhaser distributor and consultant since 1989 and has completed The Lightning Protection Course by PolyPhaser. He is the chairman of the Amateur Radio Station Grounding forum at the Dayton Hamvention and has been a guest speaker at various Amateur Radio club meetings. The author’s brother, Roger, founder of PolyPhaser, reviewed this article for technical accuracy.
While this article is about lightning protection and not just a standard electrical safety ground, the same methodology applies. If you have any doubt I suggest you contact an electrician who is familiar with the NEC. Besides, if you have an antenna connected to your equipment, you should have a grounding system that is capable of conducting an electrical strike to ground safely. It's cheap insurance. |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 244
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 5:44 pm: |
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I believe I found the NEC code language that supports my argumemt:
NEC 250-54 Common Grounding Electrode.
Where an ac system is connected to a grounding electrode in or at a building,...the same electrode shall be used to ground conductor enclosures and equipment in or at that building.
Where separate services supply a building and are required to be connected to a grounding electrode, the same grounding electrode shall be used.
Two or more grounding electrodes that are effectively bonded together shall be considered as a single grounding electrode system in this sense.
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Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 246
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 01, 2005 - 5:57 pm: |
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Mikefromms - If you ground it right it does just the opposite. There are some that feel if your ground is good enough you can actually prevent lightning strikes by keeping the ionization low around your antenna and tower. |
Pig040
Advanced Member
Username: Pig040
Post Number: 754
Registered: 7-2003
| | Posted on Saturday, April 02, 2005 - 10:15 am: |
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Just goes to show you can't believe everything you read, that excerpt came from a highly read, highly respected ham. Color me convinced, appreciate your input Racer X |
Redwolf_145
New member
Username: Redwolf_145
Post Number: 6
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 4:54 am: |
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I was told to ground my radio to a rod in the ground and pore water on it so that i will not be insolated by the ground that came for a guy that new what he was talking about |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 286
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 2:10 pm: |
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Read above. Grounding isn't that simple. Just doing what that person told you to do could be dangerous if your equipment is connected to house electricity. |
Jellybean
Member
Username: Jellybean
Post Number: 50
Registered: 1-2002
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:09 pm: |
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Hotwire if the radio's chassis is connected to radios circuit board ground, running a seperate ground on the chassis really doesn't accomplish much. The radios power cable, positive and ground, are sufficient to accomplish the task.
Grounding the radios chassis that's not tied into the radios supply ground will discharge any static that may build up on the case and keep your lips from getting bit by the mic, but not always if the air is really dry, and it will not change any impedance at all. In the house, your wall plug has the sufficient ground by the neutral wire tied into the distribution panels ground system. Even if there is a third ground wire to the ground plug on the wall box, it's also tied into the ground system in the distribution box. The only time I've seen the neutral and ground wires seperated in a distribution box is usually in phased electrical systems where the neutral is designed to actually carry current. Having the ground system from the radio, amp, etc... at a station is also to direct lightning strikes away and that should be on the coax as it enters the shack, house, etc.. and shortest distant straight to the ground by the shack. The same with the chassis grounds should be the shortest distances to grounds as well. Lightning travels the outside of wires etc.. not through them, so it comes into the shack on the outside of the coax to your stations chassis all tied together by the coax, there should be a grounds to hopefully direct it out before it gets there using arrestors. Unhooking the coax may protect the radio, but not the person if you're sitting close to it when it gets hit. It can sill come down that coax into your shack and you if your close to it.
Hope this helps. |
Redwolf_145
Junior Member
Username: Redwolf_145
Post Number: 13
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 3:56 pm: |
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I Am Just Going To let him do it for me... Since he does run the Ranger 2990... |
Sonny
Junior Member
Username: Sonny
Post Number: 35
Registered: 5-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 4:44 pm: |
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I have to put my 2 cents in for one we all should agree lighting will take the shortest path to ground, Install a good ground rod to YOUR ANTTENA
SYSTEM, DISCONNECT THE COAX FROM YOUR EQUIPMENT DURING LIGHTING STORMS AND PLACE THE PL259s IN A PLASTIC CONTAINER. ALSO THE SYSTEM USED SOMETIMES WHERE THE NUTERAL (WHITE WIRE IS HOT ) IS CALLED A Y DELTA. I DO BELIEVE.. |
Racer_x
Intermediate Member
Username: Racer_x
Post Number: 292
Registered: 2-2005
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 4:59 pm: |
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What does running a 2990 have to do with it? If it's your equipment you should know what to do because it requires maintenance. Take a little time and read about it. I suggest the ARRL pages about grounding as a start, and there is a company that deals with lightning protection that has lots of good information on the web about grounding. |
Brewdirect
Member
Username: Brewdirect
Post Number: 77
Registered: 7-2004
| | Posted on Friday, April 08, 2005 - 5:21 pm: |
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Best articles I've ever seen on grounding.
Explains how to - diagrams and some theory.
Just read the articles and follow the directions rather than worry about all the conflicting opinions.
Grounding
Moderators Note!
Your Second link was removed as it contained a Copy Righted Article. |
Redwolf_145
Junior Member
Username: Redwolf_145
Post Number: 23
Registered: 4-2005
| | Posted on Monday, April 11, 2005 - 12:56 am: |
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Saying he is not going to do something that is going to screw up his radio.... Racer X you seem so shure about.So if i do it and My radio get thrashed are you go to be willing to buy me another radio... |
